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Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

Where did I question the, "alive-ness", of a fetus at any given stage of development? Show me where I said that and I will post a vid of a fetus, "consciously", dodging the fork that an abortion doctor was trying to stick into it's brain.

Brain dead people also have physical responses to stimuli (like "dodging a fork") - this does not prove consciousness. Nothing about abortion is "killing children" unless the fetus is a conscious human being - therefore, your comment about "moreso than you believe" makes no sense unless you have scientific proof otherwise and you don't.
 
Brain dead people also have physical responses to stimuli (like "dodging a fork") - this does not prove consciousness.

No they don't. That's why the plug is pulled, when a brain dead person doesn't respond to stimuli.

Nothing about abortion is "killing children" unless the fetus is a conscious human being - therefore, your comment about "moreso than you believe" makes no sense unless you have scientific proof otherwise and you don't.

I dunno, looks like a baby to me...just my opinion, I reckon.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTTmBfOoMVQCmd4R1JF3-8QkBiKDjSL47zGvtHJ158dB2ge0UbHkQ
 
No they don't. That's why the plug is pulled, when a brain dead person doesn't respond to stimuli.
Oops, my mistake. I meant some people in a persistent vegetative state, who also lack consciousness, respond to external stimuli.


I see you're going for the emotional pull. Unfortunately, emotion doesn't trump reason. 1) Looking and being are different. 2) I'm pretty sure that's a late term abortion which I support much less than I do early term abortions.
 
Oops, my mistake. I meant some people in a persistent vegetative state, who also lack consciousness, respond to external stimuli.



I see you're going for the emotional pull. Unfortunately, emotion doesn't trump reason. 1) Looking and being are different. 2) I'm pretty sure that's a late term abortion which I support much less than I do early term abortions.

Oh, you want eleven weeks?

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQVgeOG3d2A9Tw2t4C2Wpk1QohvMivFBQC4FTKl6bVzMI75dN_s

Still looks like a baby, to me.
 
Please do not make this personal or I will not keep speaking with you. Also you know nothing about me so I suggest you not pop off at the damn mouth about stuff you are clueless about. Thanks

Actually, in claiming that people would allow babies to starve, you said a great deal about yourself,
 
Show me irrefutable scientific proof that a fetus is a conscious human being and you'll have a point. Until then, that claim sounds and is ridiculous.

Why does a fetus have to e conscious? That it is a human being is clear enough but whether it is conscious or unconscious does not seem to be relevant.
 
Brain dead people also have physical responses to stimuli (like "dodging a fork") - this does not prove consciousness. Nothing about abortion is "killing children" unless the fetus is a conscious human being - therefore, your comment about "moreso than you believe" makes no sense unless you have scientific proof otherwise and you don't.

So we can murder people when they are unconscious? That idea has been around for a while and perhaps it's making a resurgence.

How about when they're sleeping?
 
I see you're going for the emotional pull. Unfortunately, emotion doesn't trump reason. 1) Looking and being are different. 2) I'm pretty sure that's a late term abortion which I support much less than I do early term abortions.

When you support late term abortion, how late would that be?
 
I understand that concern, but since abortion is usually an elective proceedure, I do not want federal funds going towards it. In these cases, I support private charities giving assistance... and strongly support federal funding of birth control.

Unfortunately, Reps/cons have decided to take away funding for Planned Parenthood, one of the strongest organizations providing information and help to prevent unwanted pregnancies. They are against abortions, so they try to close down an organization that is helping to reduce them, go figure.
 
Why does a fetus have to e conscious? That it is a human being is clear enough but whether it is conscious or unconscious does not seem to be relevant.
Consciousness denotes personhood and full awareness of pain.

So we can murder people when they are unconscious? That idea has been around for a while and perhaps it's making a resurgence.

How about when they're sleeping?
1. You used murder improperly. Look it up and get educated. Otherwise, you look uneducated.
2. Families and doctors pull the plug on irreversibly comatose patients all of the time.
3. A sleeping person is...a person. A fetus is not.

When you support late term abortion, how late would that be?
Whenever.
 
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Unfortunately, Reps/cons have decided to take away funding for Planned Parenthood, one of the strongest organizations providing information and help to prevent unwanted pregnancies. They are against abortions, so they try to close down an organization that is helping to reduce them, go figure.
planned parenthood gets what % of the budget? oh we saved a whole nickel there!
 
Consciousness denotes personhood and full awareness of pain.

As you probably know, it has already been proven that babies in the womb feel pain, and discomfort.


1. You used murder improperly. Look it up and get educated. Otherwise, you look uneducated.

My understanding of murder is that it is the deliberate taking of another person's life. What's your definition?

2. Families and doctors pull the plug on irreversibly comatose patients all of the time.

Yes, on those with no chance of survival and no hope of ever regaining consciousness. Hoowever that has nothing to do with babies in the womb who have every chance of survival and a healthy life. It is like murdering someone who falls asleep in the hospital, confusing their temporary condition with their abulity to improve their situation.

3. A sleeping person is...a person. A fetus is not.

A fetus is a living human being. I understand the Left has a history of deciding who are 'persons' and who are 'un-persons' but that should be stopped. Having laymen and politicians decide when life is viable or not, and who should live or die, is not a good thing.


Whenever.

Exactly. At one time it was six weeks, now it had grown until "whenever". Soon it will grow some more and the Left will be deciding who can contribute most to society and who will be a drain on the social programs they keep demanding. When the entitlements the Left demands become threatened the Left will turn on whoever it takes. Right now it is babies and "the rich". Soon it will be other s who are helpless and infirm.

The history of these attitudes has been well documented.
 
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As you probably know, it has already been proven that babies in the womb feel pain, and discomfort.
A fetus is generally assumed to be able to feel pain between 20-24 weeks - 98.7% of abortions are already performed by then so it's a non-issue.
Abortion Surveillance --- United States, 2007

My understanding of murder is that it is the deliberate taking of another person's life. What's your definition?
Murder is, by all accounts, "The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice."
murder: West's Encyclopedia of American Law (Full Article) from Answers.com

Abortion is neither unlawful nor based in malice and whether or not it is "taking a person's life" is arguable at best.

Yes, on those with no chance of survival and no hope of ever regaining consciousness. Hoowever that has nothing to do with babies in the womb who have every chance of survival and a healthy life. It is like murdering someone who falls asleep in the hospital, confusing their temporary condition with their abulity to improve their situation.
It's actually not like murdering someone asleep at all because that person has already developed consciousness. A fetus has the potential to develop consciousness, but it has not yet developed it. An embryo also has the potential to develop consciousness and yet it is certainly not a human being.

A fetus is a living human being. I understand the Left has a history of deciding who are 'persons' and who are 'un-persons' but that should be stopped.
If you think it should be stopped great, I don't. A fetus is not a person.

Having laymen and politicians decide when life is viable or not, and who should live or die, is not a good thing.
That's exactly what you're doing.

Exactly. At one time it was six weeks, now it had grown until "whenever". Soon it will grow some more and the Left will be deciding who can contribute most to society and who will be a drain on the social programs they keep demanding. When the entitlements the Left demands become threatened
Stop being dramatic. The left is generally anti-war and anti-death penalty because it against the taking of obviously human life. Please.
 
Brain dead people also have physical responses to stimuli (like "dodging a fork") - this does not prove consciousness. Nothing about abortion is "killing children" unless the fetus is a conscious human being - therefore, your comment about "moreso than you believe" makes no sense unless you have scientific proof otherwise and you don't.

OK playdrive, I got some complicated scientific facts for you so pay close attention. Brain dead people = dead. Unborn children = not dead. Hope I didn't confuse you too much.
 
You might want to try to look at the big picture, here. Actions have consequences, consequences that affect more than just the individual. More unwanted children means more possible abuse... or more need for social services... or more individuals with monetary issues... or more issues with health care, etc... This is not just an issue of what one's parents can manage. If one's parents cannot manage, which does occur, society as a whole is impacted, both in local and global ways. It is far more complex than a simple answer. Those who want to outlaw abortion need to present some sort of plan for managing the amount of unwanted children that will then be presented. Without a plan addressing that issue, those who want abortion ended are not really addressing the problem at all. All they are doing is trying to legislate their own morality, having zero consideration on the global impact.

So, to answer your question, precisely, give us your SPECIFIC plan of how society should then deal with all the unwanted children that a policy of no abortions will yeild.
So, your “far more complex than a simple answer” is a simple solution of shredding into bloody pieces of a tiny helpless human being in the womb and sucking them out to be tossed into the biohazard bin without blinking an eye?

If your appeal to “unwanted children” diatribe is a logical argument to addressing the complex social problem, then shouldn’t we simply allow women such as Susan Smith or Andrea Yates to drown their “unwanted children” with impunity until society can "present some sort of plan for managing the amount of unwanted children"?
 
OK playdrive, I got some complicated scientific facts for you so pay close attention. Brain dead people = dead. Unborn children = not dead. Hope I didn't confuse you too much.

Okay, DOL, maybe you should have read my next comment where I corrected my mistake after apdst pointed it out. Hope I didn't force you to read too much.

Oops, my mistake. I meant some people in a persistent vegetative state, who also lack consciousness, respond to external stimuli.
 
Oh lawd, anyone that doesn't want their tax money wasted on bull****, like abortions, is now a terrorist.

I like it. Essentially the terrorist label is becoming meaningless due to our overuse of it. We call all sorts of people "terrorists" these days and all sorts of things WMDs. Let's expand it and maybe we'll start to understand the absurd level we've taken all this fear mongering to.
 
A fetus is generally assumed to be able to feel pain between 20-24 weeks - 98.7% of abortions are already performed by then so it's a non-issue.
Abortion Surveillance --- United States, 2007

So the criteria to end life is whether or not the subject can feel pain or not? But as you feel a baby can be aborted "whenever" that hardly really matters, does it? And we know from the support George Tiller received that many pro-abortionist activists feel the same way.
Murder is, by all accounts, "The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice."
murder: West's Encyclopedia of American Law (Full Article) from Answers.com

As soon as a woman walks into an abortion clinic with an abortionist waiting for her, I think its safe to say there is some 'premeditated malice' involved. As to the 'lawful' part it was once unlawful and now it is, which is true of any number of moral issues. It is lawful to stone women and Gays in some areas of the world also, but that does not make it right. There is also a deeply moral issue involved which the Left chooses, deliberately I feel, to ignore.
Abortion is neither unlawful nor based in malice and whether or not it is "taking a person's life" is arguable at best.

No, it is the taking of a human life. That is the whole point of abortion so there is no wiggle room for semantics here. Unless there is human life involved there is zero likelihood of an abortion taking place. But you will argue the case anyway because pro abortionists tend to be really rather zealous on the subject.

It's actually not like murdering someone asleep at all because that person has already developed consciousness. A fetus has the potential to develop consciousness, but it has not yet developed it. An embryo also has the potential to develop consciousness and yet it is certainly not a human being.

Okay, we will draw the line at persons who are sleeping but we can murder those who are unconscious. That should make boxing matches even more exciting. If that living thing inside a woman's womb is not a human being, what do you think it is? It is human and it is being.
If you think it should be stopped great, I don't.

I don't think abortion should be made illegal because there are cases where it is essential to a women's mental and physical health. But I do believe if woman is healthy and able to bring the baby into the world it is hugely immoral not to. Counseling and options should be made available to any woman who is contemplating an abortion, as it is most likely the most important decision of her life. All of us, men and women, should have to meet our responsibilities and behave accordingly. We can't always just scrape our problems away.
A fetus is not a person.

Yes, I'm familiar with this mantra.

That's exactly what you're doing.

I'm pro life so naturally I would support human life in all its forms and believe babies have the right to be born. Although there are a few mammals who eat or kill their young, only humans rationalize it and rationalizing the taking of human life often tends to get tricky once it starts.
Stop being dramatic. The left is generally anti-war and anti-death penalty because it against the taking of obviously human life. Please.

Get serious! Lets not paint the Left as caring about other human beings, in the mothers womb or otherwise.. Their history is too well documented for them to ever claim the high road.
 
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So the criteria to end life is whether or not the subject can feel pain or not? But as you feel a baby can be "aborted "whenever" that hardly really matters, does it? And we know from the support George Tiller received that many pro-abortionist activists feel the same way.
Actually, my criteria is consciousness. I mentioned pain and you focused on that.

As soon as a woman walks into an abortion clinic with an abortionist waiting for her, I think its safe to say there is some 'premeditated malice involved'. As to the 'lawful' part it was once unlawful and now it is, which is true of any number of moral issues. It is lawful to stone women and Gays in some areas of the world also, but that does not make it right. There is also a immoral issue involved which the Left chooses, deliberately I feel, to overlook.
Your opinion on the word "lawful" has no affect on its meaning. Abortion is lawful and is therefore not murder. People who get and perform abortions are 99.9% not doing it out of malice. You want to frame them that way, but it's just not the case.

No, it is the taking of a human life. That is the whole point of abortion so there is no room for semantics here. Unless there is human life involved there is zero likelihood of an abortion taking place. But you will argue the case anyway because pro abortionists tend to be really rather zealous on the subject.
I said the "taking life" part was arguable at best. You're arguing it and I disagree with you. It still doesn't meet the requirements of murder. Your use of the term doesn't make any sense. You're just using it for emotional pull.

Okay, we will draw the line at persons who are sleeping but we can murder those who are unconscious. That should make boxing matches even more exciting. If that living thing inside a woman's womb is not a human being, what do you think it is? It is human and it is being.
1. People who are unconscious were conscious before and will be after their temporary lack of conscious (barring irreversibly comatose people). A fetus, like an embryo, never had consciousness - they only have the potential for conscious.
2. What is a human being? is a difficult question to answer. I believe that a fetus is human just as I believe a person in an irreversible coma is human - so it's not really a relevant question.

I don't think abortion should be made illegal because there are cases where it is essential to a women's mental and physical health. But I do believe if woman is healthy and able to bring the baby into the world it is hugely immoral not to. Counseling and options should be made available to any woman who is contemplating an abortion, as it is most likely the most important decision of her life. All of us, men and women, should have to meet our responsibilities and behave accordingly. We can't always just scrape our problems away.
Most women think about it before it happens and most women aren't happy to get it. Counseling usually means emotional manipulation. Women can think for themselves.

I'm pro life so naturally I would support human life in all its forms and believe babies have the right to be born. Although there are a few mammals who eat or kill their young, only humans rationalize and rationalizing the taking of human life often tends to get tricky once it starts.
Most human beings don't kill their young, which is why liberals don't have children and then kill them. Nice try though.

Get serious! Lets not paint the Left as caring about other human beings, in the mothers womb or otherwise.. Their history is too well documented for them to ever claim the high road.
Really? Because most anti-war arguments are based on nothing being worth the life of a human being. And most anti-death penalty arguments are based on having problems with 1) The killing of innocent people. 2) Taking other people's life in general. Try harder.
 
Okay, DOL, maybe you should have read my next comment where I corrected my mistake after apdst pointed it out. Hope I didn't force you to read too much.

It still doesn't change much because one is likely a permanent condition that will never improve, while the other is a very temporary stage of development that will almost certainly advance in a short matter of time to a clearly conscious state. Were people in a vegetative state only in that state for an average of a few months and they would ultimately regain full consciousness you would find far fewer advocates for euthanasia in these cases.
 
It still doesn't change much because one is likely a permanent condition that will never improve, while the other is a very temporary stage of development that will almost certainly advance in a short matter of time to a clearly conscious state. Were people in a vegetative state only in that state for an average of a few months and they would ultimately regain full consciousness you would find far fewer advocates for euthanasia in these cases.

Two different situations. A person in a reversible coma has a temporary LOSS of conscious. A fetus hasn't LOST something - it never had it to begin with just like an embryo never had it to begin with.
 
Two different situations. A person in a reversible coma has a temporary LOSS of conscious. A fetus hasn't LOST something - it never had it to begin with just like an embryo never had it to begin with.

Except here the point is that you were comparing a likely permanent condition to a temporary one. A fetus or embryo only has a temporary lack of consciousness that will quickly cease to be an issue. Comparing it to a situation where there will never be consciousness again is illogical. The issue with a temporary loss of consciousness is not that the person was conscious at some time, but that person is likely to be conscious again. It is the potential for consciousness in the future that changes attitudes.
 
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