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Thread: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservativesí Sway

  1. #61
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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservativesí Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by Kali View Post
    But the thing is the woman does not want the child! So if money for poor women seeking abortions are not funded what do you think will happen?
    Other services or this service will happen in a different form or nothing at all. I suspect that services will exist however. Afterall, it would still be legal.

    Do we really wanna go back to the days of cheap back alley abortions, women killing themselves and the fetus by drinking Drano? Do you wish to live in that kind of world?
    So the person that is trying to harm another kills herself in the process? Hmm...interesting. Well since the baby was going to die either way, this is really all about the woman according to your post. In reality though, its about more than just those two parties. You should of focused on the damage the end of her life would bring to others around her instead of just focusing on her. Sadly, you didn't do that. Still, reality is hard and life moves on. I see no reason to be tolerant of anything here.

    This is nothing more than folks trying to cut funding based on morals and not looking at the big picture.
    What is funding PP? Is that not just funding something based on morals? Sure it is, and when you think about it you will find that either way its someones morals that wins.

    The big picture is the life of the child and what we are to do to protect it. The woman and her feelings are the threat.

    Not to mention a sneaky way to see if this would go over well and test the waters to try to overthrow a womans right to an abortion.
    Government created rights aren't rights really. I guess I would say they are more like protected practices of people. Could it be a right? Well, if it wasn't harming anything else, yes, it could. However, that is why pro-choicers are saying the fetus is nothing(at all or for awhile), and that a brain and/or being born is all that is important(depending on who it is) Still, since the genetics are there, the argument has no feet, and to the most part I think they know it. Making it basically just another government created right and not an actual right at all. I guess what I'm saying is I'm not feeling your argument.

    I am on to this sneak tactic and the folks are not gonna go along with it buster.
    I want to cut PP funding because of abortions. Where is the sneaky ninja? Seems to me to a samurai in the middle of the room and not a ninja at all. Wait...he is dressed like a ninja. What a crappy ninja just standing out in the middle of the room like that.

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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservativesí Sway

    I know I said I will bail from this thread... and I will... I need to get some adequate sleep to prepare for tomorrow's race... but murder has many definitions in addition to the stictly legal one...

    dictionary.com
    mur∑der   /ˈmɜrdər/ Show Spelled
    [mur-der] Show IPA

    –noun
    1. Law . the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).
    2. Slang . something extremely difficult or perilous: That final exam was murder!
    3. a group or flock of crows.
    –verb (used with object)
    4. Law . to kill by an act constituting murder.
    5. to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously.
    6. to spoil or mar by bad performance, representation, pronunciation, etc.: The tenor murdered the aria.
    I consider definition #5 to be applicable to this situation even absent the fact that this is a violation of God's law...
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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservativesí Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You might want to try to look at the big picture, here. Actions have consequences, consequences that affect more than just the individual. More unwanted children means more possible abuse... or more need for social services... or more individuals with monetary issues... or more issues with health care, etc... This is not just an issue of what one's parents can manage. If one's parents cannot manage, which does occur, society as a whole is impacted, both in local and global ways. It is far more complex than a simple answer. Those who want to outlaw abortion need to present some sort of plan for managing the amount of unwanted children that will then be presented. Without a plan addressing that issue, those who want abortion ended are not really addressing the problem at all. All they are doing is trying to legislate their own morality, having zero consideration on the global impact.

    So, to answer your question, precisely, give us your SPECIFIC plan of how society should then deal with all the unwanted children that a policy of no abortions will yeild.
    Yours is the perfect example of how the so-called "nanny-state" is popetuated. Conservatives are anti-abortion believing life from conception is worth preserving. A very noble cause indeed! But they also argue against those segments of our society who bring babies into this world and can't afford to take care of them. So, instead of providing for the "financial insecurity side" of the issue (poverty), they instead argue on the moral side of the issue (abortions and the federal unfunding of same). Only problem is how can someone who's poor, uneducated and lowly skilled find the resources necessary to care for themselves let alone a child?

    Their very argument is the poor are lazy and irresponsible, but in the best way some know how they are taking responsibility for their indiscrection, their irresponsibility. I, too, disapprove of men and women who act so irresponsibly, especially when both are consenting adults, and lay with one another to produce a child out of wedlock then use abortion as their preferred method of birth control. However, as much as I support the woman's right to an abortion in cases of rape and incest, I also respect the right of a woman and her male partner to make decissions that are right for them or for the sake of either the mother's or unborn child's health or either's life.

    Sometimes, the choices we make have serious or significant consequences. We all know that. But sometimes the seriousness of a given situation leads to difficult choices. I would rather those involved have choices that both is right for them (that persuit of happiness because what equates to happiness to one may not equate to happiness for another), and also eleviates an "undue burden on the State (nation)" than to perpetuation the problem of "perpectual co-dependency".

    Think it through, folks. Not all solutions to life's most difficult problems are so cut and dry.

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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservativesí Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    I don't use the word "murder" because that's a legal definition that vary's from state to state and my views are not so fluid. Could you elaborate on what exactly you find so "uninteresting"? I hoping you don't mean it the way it sounds.

    I've asked this before, if abortion is a right, then why is being called "pro-abortion" such a bad thing, especially if you really don't believe a life is destroyed? Aren't rights good things?
    I'll take this one X.

    Let's say, for instance, that I am in favor of the legalization of marijuana. That does not make me pro-weed (which in my opinion denotes the opinion that smoking marijuana is a good thing). Let's say that I am in favor of free speech. It doesn't mean I am pro-Westboro-Baptist craziness. See the distinction?
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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservativesí Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Third trimester abortions may be illegal to perform but they're not defined as murder either. Most states define person as someone who was born and is alive.
    That's true. However, I can see how the term "murder" could actually be used in those cases because of their illegality. Technically, it would be incorrect, but it's not so far away that it could not be argued. The legality is the key... that is a definitive component of the term. That is why I always attack it when pro-lifer's use it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservativesí Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by Kali View Post
    But the thing is the woman does not want the child!
    Then her correct choice was to not have sex. Having sex carries with it the acceptance of the risk of getting pregnant.

    Since the baby is a human being, it cannot be morally killed just because it's mother is a fool.

    It's really as simple as that. Mayor Snorkum is perfectly pro-choice. The choice is between using the words "yes" or "no" when the sperm donor approaches, requesting to make a deposit. Neither choice justifies killing a human being afterwards.

    So if money for poor women seeking abortions are not funded what do you think will happen?
    There will be less sex in the 'hood, once word gets around that those baby things are a real pain in the ass and they even cost money to care for.

    Believe it or not, and your Very Liberal "lean" indicates you lack knowledge of basic market economics, making something cost more leads to the consumption of less of it.

    Do we really wanna go back to the days of cheap back alley abortions, women killing themselves and the fetus by drinking Drano? Do you wish to live in that kind of world?
    You mean as the alternative to killing three million babies a year?

    Yes, that's a preferable alternative. Maybe if people like Madonna and Angelina Jolie would stop adopting babies in Africa and start "giving back" to the communites that were stupid enough to buy her records, things could see a little improvement in the US?

    This is nothing more than folks trying to cut funding based on morals and not looking at the big picture.
    Morality is a fine reason. You just completed a post using nothing but moralistic arguments.

    The BIG PICTURE is that the United States is broke, the Constitution does not permit funding for medical procedures or any other welfare-type transference, and that de-funding Planned Parenthood does not in any way make the murder of unborn babies illegal. All it means is that the moral taxpayer will not be required to see his hard earned tax dollars being spent on a particularly offensive purpose.

    Is there any particular reason you don't believe the prochoicers in America couldn't contribute their own money to the goal of killing unborn babies as a charity? That would be tax deductible, and completely exempt from any effort by the Pro-Life people to curtail.

    Not to mention a sneaky way to see if this would go over well and test the waters to try to overthrow a womans right to an abortion. I am on to this sneak tactic and the folks are not gonna go along with it buster.

    Women do not have a right to murder children, be they born and breathing, or not.

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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservativesí Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by Kali View Post
    But the thing is the woman does not want the child! So if money for poor women seeking abortions are not funded what do you think will happen? Do we really wanna go back to the days of cheap back alley abortions, women killing themselves and the fetus by drinking Drano? Do you wish to live in that kind of world?

    This is nothing more than folks trying to cut funding based on morals and not looking at the big picture. Not to mention a sneaky way to see if this would go over well and test the waters to try to overthrow a womans right to an abortion. I am on to this sneak tactic and the folks are not gonna go along with it buster.
    I would wish to live in a world where people are not given free range to kill babies. Abortion should be put in its rightful place in the criminal justice system: in legislation regarding homicide.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You might want to try to look at the big picture, here. Actions have consequences, consequences that affect more than just the individual. More unwanted children means more possible abuse... or more need for social services... or more individuals with monetary issues... or more issues with health care, etc... This is not just an issue of what one's parents can manage. If one's parents cannot manage, which does occur, society as a whole is impacted, both in local and global ways. It is far more complex than a simple answer. Those who want to outlaw abortion need to present some sort of plan for managing the amount of unwanted children that will then be presented. Without a plan addressing that issue, those who want abortion ended are not really addressing the problem at all. All they are doing is trying to legislate their own morality, having zero consideration on the global impact.

    So, to answer your question, precisely, give us your SPECIFIC plan of how society should then deal with all the unwanted children that a policy of no abortions will yeild.
    I love how people say abortion is not about convenience and then give an entire litany of justifications rooted solely in the idea that babies are inconvenient. Abortion is a scourge on mankind of our own design and the tolerance for it is an indication of rampant depravity in our society. We are not talking about smoking pot or paying for a blowjob. These are human lives being taken and no humane civilization should allow it. How we deal with the potential fallout of abolishing this evil is another matter to be considered after the fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    1) It is an appeal to emotion. It's not murder, no matter how you slice it. I am uninterested if that is how you see it. It is presenting a logical fallacy and I will confront anyone I see who uses it. I've done it before to Chuz Life and Hicup. You want to use the word "kill", and you will have no problem with me. Murder is incorrect.
    Murder does not only refer to unlawful killing. Of course, whether you consider it unlawful depends. I for one think Roe v. Wade was an unconstitutional ruling that made poor legal arguments. Unfortunately, the Supreme Court is the court of last resort and no other body is allowed to offset their abuses so an illegal ruling stands as though it were legal.
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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservativesí Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    I know I said I will bail from this thread... and I will... I need to get some adequate sleep to prepare for tomorrow's race... but murder has many definitions in addition to the stictly legal one...

    dictionary.com


    I consider definition #5 to be applicable to this situation even absent the fact that this is a violation of God's law...
    That's parsing definitions. Definition #1 is the definition most commonly used and applicable... which is why using the term is an appeal to emotion. And I reject God's Law as applying, legally, in this situation. That is a moral argument.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservativesí Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    Its hard for me to understand Captain Courtesy saying its not murder...when if you left the fetus alone in a few weeks it would be bubbly little baby boy or girl...
    The word "bubbly" brings up all KINDS of strange imagery the Mayor would prefer to keep in the Champagne bottle.....but the Mayor has kids of his own.

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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservativesí Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    That's true. However, I can see how the term "murder" could actually be used in those cases because of their illegality. Technically, it would be incorrect, but it's not so far away that it could not be argued. The legality is the key... that is a definitive component of the term. That is why I always attack it when pro-lifer's use it.
    So you would agree that capital punishment, no matter how it's practiced in whatever country, is not murder?
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