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Thread: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by ksu_aviator View Post
    I'm sorry you felt so maligned as to lend yourself to personal attacks. But the cold hard reality is that there is right and there is wrong and there is no middle ground. With that, people created this "grey area" as a way of coping with decisions and/or actions that they know are wrong but they wanted to do any way. Most people can't stand the idea of being thought of as bad. They want to be good. So when they do something they know is wrong, they justify it (make it good) by complicating the issue and calling it a "grey area" there by implying that there was no right answer. That makes them feel better.
    Oh. So is this opposite day?

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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    You said "I agree - it is logical - which is why a fetus is alive when it has brain life. It just doesn't have a meaningful version of life - according to me. Life isn't particularly meaningful without consciousness".

    That is "according to you", and that is where I'm directing my question.

    According to you "a fetus is alive when it has brain life. It just doesn't have a meaningful version of life". This is not about "democracy" but your opinions, and the shared opinions of many others who have adopted this philosophy.

    It is my observation that when those with power tend to feel they have the necessary insight and intelligence to determine who has and hasn't "a meaningful version of life", that all Hell breaks loose.
    1. It is about democracy because a democratic society rests upon the foundation that my opinion is valid.
    2. Your observation would make sense if pro-choicers were ordering people to get abortions, but we're not. We're letting the woman make her own judgments and choices. "All hell isn't going to break loose because we're not advocating abortion - we're advocating choice.

    In spite of what you think - you don't know any better than a woman who choses to have abortion. Any assumptions about the value/aliveness/etc. of an unborn child are subjective and your judgment of the situation should not be forced upon anyone anymore than mine should be - which is why people should be able to choose which judgment to follow.

    The Leftists were upset that Sarah Palin didn't abort her little boy with Down's Syndrome and were very critical of her for allowing his birth to take place. As time passes I suspect their rules about which life to allow will become even more stringent.
    Umm...no. A lot of "leftists" have mentally handicapped children and family members including people with Down's Syndrome so you have no idea what you're talking about. This is pretty offensive to any "leftist" with a mentally handicapped child.

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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    1. It is about democracy because a democratic society rests upon the foundation that my opinion is valid.
    I believe your opinion is seriously foolish with the consequences not having been well thought out, but I'd never suggest you don't have the right to speak out and voice your opinions. I also defended that Florida Pastor from speaking out, but only in regard to his rights. I assume you did the same. Right?

    2. Your observation would make sense if pro-choicers were ordering people to get abortions, but we're not. We're letting the woman make her own judgments and choices. "All hell isn't going to break loose because we're not advocating abortion - we're advocating choice.
    That day isn't far off.

    Obama’s Top Science Advisor John Holdren Advocates Mass Sterilizations, Forced Abortions And A Global Police Force

    In spite of what you think - you don't know any better than a woman who choses to have abortion. Any assumptions about the value/aliveness/etc. of an unborn child are subjective and your judgment of the situation should not be forced upon anyone anymore than mine should be - which is why people should be able to choose which judgment to follow.
    I accept that. Now can you accept the idea that other people shouldn't have to pay for your individual choice?


    Umm...no. A lot of "leftists" have mentally handicapped children and family members including people with Down's Syndrome so you have no idea what you're talking about. This is pretty offensive to any "leftist" with a mentally handicapped child.
    A lot of Leftists ARE mentally handicapped children.

    I'm directing my well deserved insults to the Leftists, not their children. Only Leftists attack children, in or out of the womb.

    Did you miss those attacks on Sarah Palin's children? They felt so secure and safe with their insults directed at her children that it even went mainstream on Letterman.
    Last edited by Grant; 04-14-11 at 05:28 PM.

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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    I believe your opinion is seriously foolish with the consequences not having been well thought out, but I'd never suggest you don't have the right to speak out and voice your opinions.
    Great. I don't think your opinion is foolish and I think you should have the right to say it.

    I also defended that Florida Pastor from speaking out, but only in regard to his rights. I assume you did the same. Right?
    No. I don't "defend" morons. I did, however, say that he should have the right to burn the Koran and be a moron.


    In academic communities where people don't get alarmed at ideas, these topics and arguments are not at all "crazy". He's talking about the potential measures a country would take if its overpopulation threatened survival. Oftentimes, when the topic is about something as dramatic as "the survival of the population", the arguments are also as dramatic. I'm unmoved.

    I accept that. Now can you accept the idea that other people shouldn't have to pay for your individual choice?
    Sure. They don't - abortion isn't federally funded.

    Edit (in response to your edit):
    A lot of Leftists ARE mentally handicapped children.
    Children can't vote and many mentally handicapped people can't either. This comment is irrelevant.

    I'm directing my well deserved insults to the Leftists, not their children. Only Leftists attack children, in or out of the womb.

    Did you miss those attacks on Sarah Palin's children? They felt so secure and safe with their insults directed at her children that it even went mainstream on Letterman.
    People insulted Chelsea Clinton and still do. Your point is invalid. Politicians' children are always insulted - it usually increases with age which is why Bristol got the brunt of it.
    Last edited by ThePlayDrive; 04-14-11 at 05:33 PM.

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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    And this is your problem. You refuse to look at the complexity of the situation, which is my whole point. Behaviors and actions have consequences, consequences that affect many more than what you are considering. You are failing to either grasp or address the entire issue. Either way, your position flounders because of that.
    I certainly look at the complexity of the situation, however I also look at the bigger picture and see in that no serious loss to justify the kind of attitude people have here. That some portion of the poor might have a problem finding such a facility in the immediate term, presuming again that Planned Parenthood actually had to shut down over the loss of funding, is not serious enough to override the benefit of shutting down the largest abortion provider in the country.

    Just because you consider it correct, doesn't make it so... a fact that you seem to forget... and one I always enjoy pointing out. You are incorrect.
    Really? Why do you think most women have abortions if not convenience?

    Not an appeal to emotion at all. All accurate statements. It's a real simple fact of numbers, DoL. Increase the population, increase the need for services, materials, food, etc... VERY SIMPLE economics. Further, children who are not wanted tend to be treated as such. All of this is the reality of how things operate. Now, I know that the way that pro-lifers tend to debate is outside the parameters of reality and planning, but that does not alter my intention to present those real issues.
    It is an appeal to emotion because you are using the fear of these problems as an argument in itself. You are saying we should allow abortion because very bad things would happen if we didn't. That is classic appeal to emotion because it does not involve an actual argument for allowing abortion, only an argument for how scary things would be without it.

    Do you believe it? Yup. Is it an appeal to emotion? Yup.
    Calling it what I believe it to be is just that. It is not an appeal to emotion in any way. Do not mistake saying something that incites strong emotions with an appeal to emotion. My emotions on this issue are strong and I am not going to sugarcoat abortion just to satisfy misguided nit-pickers like yourself who pompously toss around the names of logical fallacies to try and "win" a discussion.

    I've told you before. You do not decide how I debate. I do... as I just demonstrated. You can keep trying, but I will ignore and mock you each time you try this.
    I was not telling you how to debate, just telling you the only two possible choices for your accusation to have any consistency. The people who defined "appeal to emotion" are responsible for that.

    I accept that they are human. And I am still making the argument that I am making. You have failed AGAIN. You do not understand the argument.
    I did not just say "human" but "as human as the rest of us" and there is a significant difference.

    Irrelevant to what I am discussing with you. You can try to change because you cannot or will not answer the question, but that does not mean that I will allow you to slink away from it. You want abortion to stop. One thing you need for that to happen is to convince some of us who could be swayed. I am telling one way to do that. This argument is an argument that lots of pro-choicers put out there... and one that pro-lifers refuse to answer. Your emotional concerns for the unborn are irrelevant to me... and if you want to sway me, you need to focus on what IS relevant. What would be your plan to manage all of the additional chidren that would be alive if abortion no longer happened?
    My issue with you is the insistence that one can only propose putting an end to abortion if they already have a plan to deal with the entire child-care system. Were you only inquiring as to what would be done to deal with the consequences it would be one thing, but here you are conditioning an end to abortion with answering the query to your satisfaction. I am not playing your game.

    Demonstrating that you do not know what you are talking about. I work with providers, daily. Very few take Medicaid.
    Your vague anecdotes are of no interest to me. How about you provide some hard facts?

    That's you parsing the numbers. It also means that 2/3 of their facilities have nothing to do with abortions.
    For now, though that is slated to change. However, one-third of their facilities being focused more on abortions than any other services sounds a lot different from "3% of their services are abortions" which is what you and Chappy first trotted out. The latter gives the deceitful impression that abortion is not a significant part of what Planned Parenthood does while the former indicates it is a central service to the organization.
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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    We're letting the woman make her own judgments and choices. "All hell isn't going to break loose because we're not advocating abortion - we're advocating choice.
    It should never be a choice whether or not to murder something so helpless as an unborn child, for the mere sake of convience of life of the child bearer. That is not couragous, but rather cowardly instead.

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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    There is a lot of oil in Alaska the present government chooses to ignore and the Keystone pipeline has been waiting on a decision for far too long. If you call treating oil companies with some respect is "coddling" then i can see why some companies are saying it's become to difficult to do business there.
    The problem is that we can't get both parties to come to some reasonable agreement. You blame Democrats, but there are Republicans that feel the same way.

    MINNEAPOLIS — Senator John McCain reiterated his opposition to drilling for oil in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge on Thursday, a day after his statement that he would be willing to “go back and look at it again” sparked speculation among both opponents and proponents of drilling that he might change his mind.

    “My position has not changed,’’ Mr. McCain said here on his campaign bus.

    http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2...ldlife-refuge/

    I'm glad out economy is doing well also, but I want the same for the American people too. And if you are going to strangle the chief suppliers of your energy resources then I can only see problems ahead. Nancy Pelosi visited here a while back to make sure Canada was following environmental guidelines but her visit was all for American political consumption. We follow very strict guidelines here but it's all become too political in the States.
    There is a big difference between strangling chief suppliers and making sure they do things in a safe manner to protect the people and the environment. It only seems political because the country has become divided - it isn't about what is right for the country any more, it's about what does my party stand behind!

    This is a new attitude for Americans. I've never heard a time in their history when they waited for money to "trickle down". In fact this attitude seems exclusive to Americans right now.
    Oh no, it is not new. It was introduced by Reagan when he was president, the idea that if you don't tax the rich and corporations, some of their earnings will trickle down to the poor people. The opposite has happened, the poor people's money is trickling up. George HW Bush called it voodoo economics, and after G W Bush left us in such a mess, I guess his father knew what he was talking about.

    That's right, but we don't have the same rights here as the Americans do. Previous governments have removed those rights and the present generation grows up not realizing what is gone, or that they can never get it back. Now you're going through the same process and gradually eroding those rights that made your country great. We've seen it happen throughout the democracies and Europe is probably the best example of what the future holds.
    That is why we are fighting to maintain those rights. It isn't fair that we pay taxes and the only ones that get major returns are the wealthy, who are being given loopholes and shelters so they can keep more of their money. I would like to keep more of my money, too, but it seems my taxes keep going up while the rich are able to work around their rates and some end up paying even less than the middle-class.

    That's right also. A majority government put it under our Medical system and despite protests there was nothing the Canadian people could do. Now you have the freedom to debate abortion, a luxury Canadians don't have. Soon that debate will disappear in the US also, probably sooner than many think.
    That some are trying to take the country back a few hundred years is nothing new. I guess they preferred when women were doing them behind closed doors with clothes hangers. I guess their compassion for the fetus does not take into consideration that now we'll be losing both the women and the fetus. I don't believe they will ever do away with abortion, there will always be a need for it (risk of mother's life, rape and incest), and there will always be those who will be willing to bend the rules. The real help was in providing education, but that seems to be one of the things Republicans want to get rid of.

    Our welfare system has become more strict, but of course we also have many dependent on it to. I once worked in a city welfare department for a couple of years and it just went from one generation among many families to the next. They just became paperwork and nothing was really ever expected of them.
    That is the problem with the state, not the people. You are always going to have a small group that will try to milk the system, no matter what it is. It is up to the states to come up with rigid rules to obstruct abuse. The new welfare laws (Clinton's reform), only allow a person to stay 5 years - (I'm sure there are exceptions), but anyone that is able to work should be expected to get a job. If that doesn't happen it is because the State is not doing their job.


    yes, I'm familiar with that GE debacle and its ties with the US President and his political party but in fact the corporate tax rate in Canada is almost half of what is is in the States so with NAFTA in place it's very easy for companies to move up here.
    Obama has named Immelt as head of the New Jobs Panel. I guess he believes the old adage, "keep your friends close and your enemies closer" - Immelt is a Republican and has contributed heavily to Republican candidates. Either that, or he is trying to appeal to Republicans by naming one of their own. Since it has been declared that GE didn't pay taxes most Republicans are now trying to disassociate with him, trying to make him a Democrat or somehow tie the "no taxes paid by GE" as a Democratic endeavor, when we all know they are all out for reducing corporate taxes.

    Canada is doing well right now but if the government tries to do too much spending or the public makes greater and greater demands, I can see it collapsing, just as it has elsewhere. I tend to make conservative investments myself and it's served me well, and I appreciate my government doing the same thing. But once in power, with all that money at their disposal, they get a thrill of excitement they wouldn't otherwise enjoy, and want to right every wrong the world has ever known. That's when the problems begin and reminds us of Lord Acton's warning on power corrupting, which is just as true now as it was when he said it those many years ago. And the political party doesn't matter at all.
    I don't know what is going to happen here. I've never seen so much animosity between the parties as has been seen since Obama got elected. It has split families and caused friends to split. I speak from experience!



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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by dolphinocean View Post
    Here's the absurdity of pro-abortion argument:

    They don't believe that a prenatal life conceived in a human womb is a prenatal human baby. They claimed it is a blob of tissue with no consciousness and no ability to feel pain. They will claim “It doesn't sway many people” even having “watched films on abortions with friends and acquaintances where they show all the gruesome stuff “.

    Including the claim that: “If someone doesn't believe that a stage of development has the full value of a fully developed human, they are likely not going to react emotionally because they do not have the same attachment to it that a person who does believe those things will.

    In their own word they claimed that it has only "the potential to develop consciousness and yet it is certainly not a human being".

    As such, they convince themselves that abortion is not murder. If that's true, if that's what they truly believe, how on earth could they be emotionally disturbed by a factual description of a procedure called Dilation and Curettage performed during a surgical abortion procedure?

    Do you get emotionally disturbed when people described the meat processing procedure? Would you accuse me of emotional appeal if I describe the butchering procedure as cutting into pieces of various sizes of meat or ground them hind legs into ground meats for sausage making? How about a description of cutting down a tree, a life no less, and shredding it into tiny pieces as mulch or pulverizing it into saw dust to be dumped into the compost pile?

    How about liposuction procedure? Would you cry foul if I tell you how your fatty tissues are being sucked out of your sagging tummy?

    Of course not. So, why would pro-abortion zealots who claim they don't believe a prenatal human life is a human being or, by their term, " a human person", get emotionally upset when a procedure of surgical abortion is factually described to them?

    Obviously, deep down they know abortion is a cold blooded murder of innocent prenatal human beings. They may vehemently deny it and cry foul, but when confronted with reality, deep down within them their conscience convicts themselves. Thereby, involuntarily and unconsciously it betrays their lies. That’s why they cry foul and cry hard they do, vehemently and loudly.

    Also, they will tell you abortion is a complex issue involving “unwanted children”. Yet, they refuse to realize that abortion is also too simple a solution to a complex problem. Not only that, it’s also a cop out option to destroy another human life to cover for the irresponsibility of the perpetrators.

    With one foot, they will stand firm on the ground of abortion to make their point, which is a moot point. But, with the other foot hanging aloft, when confronted into a tight corner, they will stand on another ground to deny their case “to abort them".

    It's an evasive behavior.
    1) I have never stated that a prenatal life is not human. In fact, I have always stated that, genetically, it IS human.
    2) Everything else you stated is nothing more than more dramatics and appeals to emotion.

    Let me know when you either post something that attends to my actual position, or that doesn't reek of dramatics. Thus far, I haven't seen you do either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    I certainly look at the complexity of the situation, however I also look at the bigger picture and see in that no serious loss to justify the kind of attitude people have here. That some portion of the poor might have a problem finding such a facility in the immediate term, presuming again that Planned Parenthood actually had to shut down over the loss of funding, is not serious enough to override the benefit of shutting down the largest abortion provider in the country.
    Again, you are avoiding the issue, DoL. You are still simplifying a complex issue. One way to avoid abortions is to make birth control and low cost medical-sexual services as easily accessible as possible. PP helps make this happen. You want abortion stopped, but you offer nothing to assist in the post-situational process. In fact, the things you suggest complicate matters, further. SOP for pro-lifers.


    Really? Why do you think most women have abortions if not convenience?
    Define convienence.

    It is an appeal to emotion because you are using the fear of these problems as an argument in itself. You are saying we should allow abortion because very bad things would happen if we didn't. That is classic appeal to emotion because it does not involve an actual argument for allowing abortion, only an argument for how scary things would be without it.
    No, I am giving you actual statistics. If we do not allow abortions, there will be more children do manage. Many more. Many of these chidren will be unwanted... as if abortion were legal, they would not exist. This is very simple logic, DoL. No appeal to emotion, just simple logic.

    Calling it what I believe it to be is just that. It is not an appeal to emotion in any way. Do not mistake saying something that incites strong emotions with an appeal to emotion. My emotions on this issue are strong and I am not going to sugarcoat abortion just to satisfy misguided nit-pickers like yourself who pompously toss around the names of logical fallacies to try and "win" a discussion.
    No need to get snippy because your lack of logic on this issue makes you look silly. It does. Calling it what you believe it is does not make it accurate. You are using emotional terms to garner pity. This is an appeal to emotion. Very weak debating, DoL... very weak.

    I was not telling you how to debate, just telling you the only two possible choices for your accusation to have any consistency. The people who defined "appeal to emotion" are responsible for that.
    I have demonstrated your poor logic repeatedly. Your denial of that is your problem.

    I did not just say "human" but "as human as the rest of us" and there is a significant difference.
    Explain the difference.

    My issue with you is the insistence that one can only propose putting an end to abortion if they already have a plan to deal with the entire child-care system. Were you only inquiring as to what would be done to deal with the consequences it would be one thing, but here you are conditioning an end to abortion with answering the query to your satisfaction. I am not playing your game.
    You're refusing to answer because you can't. It is the failure of the pro-lifer position. Further, you have been altering my position from the start... as is your standard MO when you debate. I will tell you again, I am not asking for a solution to the entire child-care system. I am asking you to provide a plan that would address the management of the additional children that would not be alive if abortion were legal. This is what I have been asking from the beginning. Your alteration of what I am asking is just more of your standard dishonest debating. Now, I understand that you can't answer the question, but at least admit that instead of being dishonest and changing what I am asking.

    Your vague anecdotes are of no interest to me. How about you provide some hard facts?
    You didn't even offer vague anecdotes. All you said was "nuh, uh." Show us some evidence that I am wrong.

    For now, though that is slated to change. However, one-third of their facilities being focused more on abortions than any other services sounds a lot different from "3% of their services are abortions" which is what you and Chappy first trotted out. The latter gives the deceitful impression that abortion is not a significant part of what Planned Parenthood does while the former indicates it is a central service to the organization.
    And your "one-thirds" is you parsing statistics and gives a deceitful impression that abortion is a more significant part of what PP does that it actually does.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

    If abortion is such the "right" that the pro advocates say it is then there should be no problem in making it a constitutional amendment rather than a judicial fiat like it is now.

    Second, if it is such the moral non sequiter that the pro side says, then why not address it for what it is, discontinuing a human life.

    We need to see this for what it is, population control. Margret Sanger was a eugenicist, and started this org with the control of the AA community, and mentally challenged in mind. It is sickening that the current proponents of this infanticide are allowed to mask this travesty in some pseudo moral rights argument. Talk about turning morality on its head.


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