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Thread: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    I'm talking about the United States that wiped out the Native Americans, enslaved blacks and put Japanese people in internment camps. The point, is that "the Left" is not responsible for all the "inhumanities of the world" as you put it - human beings are. Considering the "left" is pretty much always attacked on here for "trying to save the world" - your comment makes zero sense.
    You asked me this."Really? Every inhumanity known to man? Please provide examples and statistics showing that the collective "left" supports them".

    And i mentioned where the Left, Communists, committed every atrocity known to man. And the Left in the democracies supported them.

    Now you are on to Americans "wiping out" the Native Americans, which would come as a surprise to the many Native Americans still around. Or Slaves? Freed by Republicans and kept in chains by the Democrats and the internment of Japanese by a left wing Democrat. Don't know much about his-tory! Don't know much bi-ol-o-gy.

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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by mertex View Post
    My point, exactly!
    It seems then that the problem is solved. If it is that small they won't miss it and the funding of abortions can cease.

    Everyone wins!

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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    They sure do. Unfortunately, potential is not actuality and since they do not have consciousness, that potential isn't particularly relevant to me. There's too much grey area and the woman should be able to decide.


    Some do. Some of them have families who make the decision for them. Oh well.
    Grey area? A grey area is the rationalization of a decision that is contrary to the individual or group's moral values. Generally, this decision is more expedient or convenient.
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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    That's pretty much how I summed up your position. Not all types of life, and we are talking about human life here, are equal. That's not an unusual position for Leftists to take. And we are not talking about "irreversible comatose patients" here. We are talking about babies.
    Oh I see. You're willing to talk about irreversible comatose patients when it suits you and you're not when it doesn't. I mean, even you know that the life of an irreversibly comatose patient and a normal human being are not equal. You just don't want to admit it because it gets in the way of your argument.

    There are thousands of people dependent on others, and many thousands more willing to help others, It is second nature to many millions of people to help, while there are many more who think otherwise.
    I don't need the lecture on helping people. Many conservatives on this board have already told me that I and other liberals are too idealistic in our expectations for taking care of people.

    You're using the old "Am I my brother's keeper?" argument, and it's clear which side you come down on.[
    No. Please explain how you got this from my argument.

    Unscientific religious judgment? Do you think it's only religious people who feel that aborting babies is wrong? And if you feel strongly about the "rights of women", lets see you on a thread defending Muslim women and attack the men, and the system, that works against them.
    Okay - unscientific moral judgment. Muslim women? What are you even talking about?

    And I explained why it isn't nonsensical. if there is anything that is absolute in humans its the difference between life and death/
    If only that were true.

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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    This is absurd. Communism is not the problem. From an idealistic standpoint, Communism is optimal. It is man's greed and therefore inability to live under any kind of pure cimmunistic regime that is the problem.
    Communism is not "optimal" from an idealistic standpoint or any other standpoint. There is absolutly nothing to recomend it.

    Communism usually turns into fascism... a right wing ideology
    Funny you should say that!

    I happened to be at the Berlin Wall during its destruction and following an afternoon of futile chipping away at concrete I mentioned to my wife that soon the Left would be calling Communism "right wing", just as they did with Nazism.

    You aren't the first one to suggest that Communism is right wing though, I first heard of it about four years after the wall came down. Still, it's a good shot at historical revisionism.

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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Communism is not "optimal" from an idealistic standpoint or any other standpoint. There is absolutly nothing to recomend it.
    Looking a Communism in a pure form, of course it's optimal. Folks working together with everyone's needs being met. Of course this kind of utopia is completely unrealistic.



    Funny you should say that!

    I happened to be at the Berlin Wall during its destruction and following an afternoon of futile chipping away at concrete I mentioned to my wife that soon the Left would be calling Communism "right wing", just as they did with Nazism.

    You aren't the first one to suggest that Communism is right wing though, I first heard of it about four years after the wall came down. Still, it's a good shot at historical revisionism.
    I didn't suggest that Communism is right wing. Do try to debate what I am saying and NOT what you want me to have said. What I said is that Communism TURNS INTO fascism, which is a right wing ideology.

    Oh, and Nazism has always been right wing, for the most part.
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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Oh I see. You're willing to talk about irreversible comatose patients when it suits you and you're not when it doesn't. I mean, even you know that the life of an irreversibly comatose patient and a normal human being are not equal. You just don't want to admit it because it gets in the way of your argument.
    Quite the opposite. I said "irreversible comatose patients" had nothing to do with what we were discussing, and indeed it doesn't. I never mentioned them because they aren't relevant to the conversation.

    I don't need the lecture on helping people. Many conservatives on this board have already told me that I and other liberals are too idealistic in our expectations for taking care of people.
    I don't think you are idealistic at all, and its the same with most Leftists. They would rather "the rich" pay the government to look after people rather than volunteering to it themselves.

    No. Please explain how you got this from my argument.
    You were discussing "wholly dependents" in a most negative way. In fact you attempted to justify their death.

    Okay - unscientific moral judgment. Muslim women? What are you even talking about?
    I'm talking of your mention and supposed support of women's rights. Do you not read your own posts?


    If only that were true.
    So there is no difference between life and death? That's quite a bold statement, and one suggestive of deep religiosity.

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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Looking a Communism in a pure form, of course it's optimal. Folks working together with everyone's needs being met. Of course this kind of utopia is completely unrealistic.
    Quite right. But millions treated it as though it was realistic and as a result tens of millions died and many tens of millions more had their lives ruined. And this worst horror in modern times was aided and abetted by the Leftists.


    I didn't suggest that Communism is right wing. Do try to debate what I am saying and NOT what you want me to have said. What I said is that Communism TURNS INTO fascism, which is a right wing ideology.
    Communism doesn't 'turn into' anything. It is what it is. That's being realistic.

    Oh, and Nazism has always been right wing, for the most part.
    Sure, after the war was over and Communism propaganda took over. Then anyone who didn't follow the Communist line was "right wing" and dangerous. Or "fascist".That propaganda, separating the political world into two groups, and ignoring the middle, is still in use by Leftists today.

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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    Could it just be something as cynical as a need for cannon fodder, or abjectly poor people desperate for even peasant level wages?
    Unfortunately, one of life's greatest pleasures has its downsides! As long as we have been around, and all the advances we have made, people still don't realize that if you have unprotected sex, there may be some consequences.

    Because I sure see a lot of activity in support of sex leading to offspring, while also witnessing a complete liquidation of all support systems for those children after birth.
    Yep, the party that claims to be so concerned for the welfare of the unborn, display many characteristics of someone that doesn't care for humans once they are here, at least not poor or maybe even middle-class humans!

    Is the human race just incapable of seeing multiple sides of an issue, or is it just a result of the constant barrage of persuasion techniques?
    It is called narrow mindedness. Seeing something only from one perspective and failing to acknowledge valid points from any other side.

    I mean seriously, this thread is filled with "liberals don't care about people" statements from people who claim liberals are unrealistic about society caring about people.
    It is my opinion that Liberals, even those that don't believe in God, have more empathy for others than the ones that claim they do. Abortion seems to be one topic where they are able to claim "caring" without having to spend a dime. As you can see, they have made sure that not one penny from tax payer's money goes toward anyone's abortion. Never mind, the people that are on welfare and have no health insurance, they can fend for themselves the best way they can, as they would like to do away with welfare and HCR, because that may actually cost them something.

    Personally, I believe ther are far too many people on the planet as it is, and therefore bringing more people into it is madness. I advocate incentives to sterilization and even voluntary, incentivized eugenics. (Genetic disorders, etc.)
    I do not go for those extremes, but I'm all for programs that will educate people that have no idea what happens when you have sex. But, we have seen that they even want those programs eliminated. Everyone should be born with the knowledge, I guess.
    So while I don't advocate for abortion as birth control, I do believe that accidental/unwanted pregnancies should be abortable for both the survival of the species as well as the quality of life of the fetus in question.
    As a Christian, I would not have an abortion for myself regardless of my circumstances, but I realize that not all people share my beliefs and we do have a law that is in place that allows women to use that option. I have a feeling that many that choose abortion for convenience do it because they may not have the means to take care of an infant, but it seems that is not of concern for those who are against abortion. It appears that they are in favor of removing any programs that might have changed someone's mind, almost as if their mantra is "you made your bed, now lay in it"!

    And for reference, I believe in reincarnation and a multitude of lives, a philosophy precisely as valid as any other, so my cosmology does not necessarily make abortion a sin.
    I believe that we will always have to provide for abortions because there will always be cases where the woman's life is at risk, where the infant is so deformed and will not live anyway and puts the mother's life at risk if birthed. Then there is also rape and incest. I cannot imagine what it would be to carry a child of a criminal, so I will not even make any assumptions as to how someone in that situation should feel. It certainly is not something as simple as what that moron from Ariz (Angle) tried to imply - "make lemonade out of lemons"! And, as long as the law falls under the privacy issue, we will never know how many abortions are really necessary and how many are for convenience. That is why I support education and support instead of just expecting people to do what some group thinks is the right thing.

    This is just another of those places where people are never going to agree.
    Once it became a political issue, it took a new life of its own - I don't think all of it is about the fetus anymore.



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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    You asked me this."Really? Every inhumanity known to man? Please provide examples and statistics showing that the collective "left" supports them".

    And i mentioned where the Left, Communists, committed every atrocity known to man. And the Left in the democracies supported them.
    See CC's comment on Communism.

    Now you are on to Americans "wiping out" the Native Americans, which would come as a surprise to the many Native Americans still around. Or Slaves? Freed by Republicans and kept in chains by the Democrats and the internment of Japanese by a left wing Democrat. Don't know much about his-tory! Don't know much bi-ol-o-gy.
    I LOVE IT when Republicans bring this up. The best part of the "Republicans freed the slaves" argument is that Republicans, as we know them now, didn't actually free the slaves.

    First we have the realigning election of 1932:
    See more here:Realigning election - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Then we have the realigning process of the racist south from 1948-1964:
    In 1948, Democrats alienated white Southerners in two ways. The Democratic National Convention adopted a strong civil rights plank, leading to a walkout by Southerners. Two weeks later President Harry Truman signed Executive Order 9981 integrating the armed forces. From 1948 onward, southern whites against integration looked for political accommodation for their views....With the old barrier to becoming a Republican removed, traditional Southerners joined the new middle class and the Northern transplants in moving toward the Republican Party.
    History of the United States Republican Party - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    In other words, all the racists who opposed black rights in the Democratic Party moved to the Republican Party by the 1960s.

    Nonetheless, nothing you said has anything to do with abortion so back to the topic.

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