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Thread: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

  1. #221
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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    A fetus is generally assumed to be able to feel pain between 20-24 weeks - 98.7% of abortions are already performed by then so it's a non-issue.
    Abortion Surveillance --- United States, 2007
    So the criteria to end life is whether or not the subject can feel pain or not? But as you feel a baby can be aborted "whenever" that hardly really matters, does it? And we know from the support George Tiller received that many pro-abortionist activists feel the same way.
    Murder is, by all accounts, "The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice."
    murder: West's Encyclopedia of American Law (Full Article) from Answers.com
    As soon as a woman walks into an abortion clinic with an abortionist waiting for her, I think its safe to say there is some 'premeditated malice' involved. As to the 'lawful' part it was once unlawful and now it is, which is true of any number of moral issues. It is lawful to stone women and Gays in some areas of the world also, but that does not make it right. There is also a deeply moral issue involved which the Left chooses, deliberately I feel, to ignore.
    Abortion is neither unlawful nor based in malice and whether or not it is "taking a person's life" is arguable at best.
    No, it is the taking of a human life. That is the whole point of abortion so there is no wiggle room for semantics here. Unless there is human life involved there is zero likelihood of an abortion taking place. But you will argue the case anyway because pro abortionists tend to be really rather zealous on the subject.

    It's actually not like murdering someone asleep at all because that person has already developed consciousness. A fetus has the potential to develop consciousness, but it has not yet developed it. An embryo also has the potential to develop consciousness and yet it is certainly not a human being.
    Okay, we will draw the line at persons who are sleeping but we can murder those who are unconscious. That should make boxing matches even more exciting. If that living thing inside a woman's womb is not a human being, what do you think it is? It is human and it is being.
    If you think it should be stopped great, I don't.
    I don't think abortion should be made illegal because there are cases where it is essential to a women's mental and physical health. But I do believe if woman is healthy and able to bring the baby into the world it is hugely immoral not to. Counseling and options should be made available to any woman who is contemplating an abortion, as it is most likely the most important decision of her life. All of us, men and women, should have to meet our responsibilities and behave accordingly. We can't always just scrape our problems away.
    A fetus is not a person.
    Yes, I'm familiar with this mantra.

    That's exactly what you're doing.
    I'm pro life so naturally I would support human life in all its forms and believe babies have the right to be born. Although there are a few mammals who eat or kill their young, only humans rationalize it and rationalizing the taking of human life often tends to get tricky once it starts.
    Stop being dramatic. The left is generally anti-war and anti-death penalty because it against the taking of obviously human life. Please.
    Get serious! Lets not paint the Left as caring about other human beings, in the mothers womb or otherwise.. Their history is too well documented for them to ever claim the high road.
    Last edited by Grant; 04-12-11 at 01:47 PM.

  2. #222
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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post

    So the criteria to end life is whether or not the subject can feel pain or not? But as you feel a baby can be "aborted "whenever" that hardly really matters, does it? And we know from the support George Tiller received that many pro-abortionist activists feel the same way.
    Actually, my criteria is consciousness. I mentioned pain and you focused on that.

    As soon as a woman walks into an abortion clinic with an abortionist waiting for her, I think its safe to say there is some 'premeditated malice involved'. As to the 'lawful' part it was once unlawful and now it is, which is true of any number of moral issues. It is lawful to stone women and Gays in some areas of the world also, but that does not make it right. There is also a immoral issue involved which the Left chooses, deliberately I feel, to overlook.
    Your opinion on the word "lawful" has no affect on its meaning. Abortion is lawful and is therefore not murder. People who get and perform abortions are 99.9% not doing it out of malice. You want to frame them that way, but it's just not the case.

    No, it is the taking of a human life. That is the whole point of abortion so there is no room for semantics here. Unless there is human life involved there is zero likelihood of an abortion taking place. But you will argue the case anyway because pro abortionists tend to be really rather zealous on the subject.
    I said the "taking life" part was arguable at best. You're arguing it and I disagree with you. It still doesn't meet the requirements of murder. Your use of the term doesn't make any sense. You're just using it for emotional pull.

    Okay, we will draw the line at persons who are sleeping but we can murder those who are unconscious. That should make boxing matches even more exciting. If that living thing inside a woman's womb is not a human being, what do you think it is? It is human and it is being.
    1. People who are unconscious were conscious before and will be after their temporary lack of conscious (barring irreversibly comatose people). A fetus, like an embryo, never had consciousness - they only have the potential for conscious.
    2. What is a human being? is a difficult question to answer. I believe that a fetus is human just as I believe a person in an irreversible coma is human - so it's not really a relevant question.

    I don't think abortion should be made illegal because there are cases where it is essential to a women's mental and physical health. But I do believe if woman is healthy and able to bring the baby into the world it is hugely immoral not to. Counseling and options should be made available to any woman who is contemplating an abortion, as it is most likely the most important decision of her life. All of us, men and women, should have to meet our responsibilities and behave accordingly. We can't always just scrape our problems away.
    Most women think about it before it happens and most women aren't happy to get it. Counseling usually means emotional manipulation. Women can think for themselves.

    I'm pro life so naturally I would support human life in all its forms and believe babies have the right to be born. Although there are a few mammals who eat or kill their young, only humans rationalize and rationalizing the taking of human life often tends to get tricky once it starts.
    Most human beings don't kill their young, which is why liberals don't have children and then kill them. Nice try though.

    Get serious! Lets not paint the Left as caring about other human beings, in the mothers womb or otherwise.. Their history is too well documented for them to ever claim the high road.
    Really? Because most anti-war arguments are based on nothing being worth the life of a human being. And most anti-death penalty arguments are based on having problems with 1) The killing of innocent people. 2) Taking other people's life in general. Try harder.

  3. #223
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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Okay, DOL, maybe you should have read my next comment where I corrected my mistake after apdst pointed it out. Hope I didn't force you to read too much.
    It still doesn't change much because one is likely a permanent condition that will never improve, while the other is a very temporary stage of development that will almost certainly advance in a short matter of time to a clearly conscious state. Were people in a vegetative state only in that state for an average of a few months and they would ultimately regain full consciousness you would find far fewer advocates for euthanasia in these cases.
    "For what is Evil but Good-tortured by its own hunger and thirst?"
    - Khalil Gibran

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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    It still doesn't change much because one is likely a permanent condition that will never improve, while the other is a very temporary stage of development that will almost certainly advance in a short matter of time to a clearly conscious state. Were people in a vegetative state only in that state for an average of a few months and they would ultimately regain full consciousness you would find far fewer advocates for euthanasia in these cases.
    Two different situations. A person in a reversible coma has a temporary LOSS of conscious. A fetus hasn't LOST something - it never had it to begin with just like an embryo never had it to begin with.

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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Two different situations. A person in a reversible coma has a temporary LOSS of conscious. A fetus hasn't LOST something - it never had it to begin with just like an embryo never had it to begin with.
    Except here the point is that you were comparing a likely permanent condition to a temporary one. A fetus or embryo only has a temporary lack of consciousness that will quickly cease to be an issue. Comparing it to a situation where there will never be consciousness again is illogical. The issue with a temporary loss of consciousness is not that the person was conscious at some time, but that person is likely to be conscious again. It is the potential for consciousness in the future that changes attitudes.
    "For what is Evil but Good-tortured by its own hunger and thirst?"
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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Actually, my criteria is consciousness. I mentioned pain and you focused on that.
    I 'focused' on consciousness as well though I may not have added what a silly excuse that was. We don't not end the life of someone because they are 'unconscious'. There has to be be more to it than that, and I mentioned examples and the reasons.

    Your opinion on the word "lawful" has no affect on its meaning. Abortion is lawful and is therefore not murder. People who get and perform abortions are 99.9% not doing it out of malice. You want to frame them that way, but it's just not the case.
    Because you seem to have missed the point doesn't make it any less real. It is lawful now, in some areas of the world, and illegal in others. It was illegal in the United States at one time and now it is legal, and there are many abortion advocates who want to fight against the issue returning to the Supreme Court because it might be proved illegal once again. And of course the Supreme Court should never have ruled in the case anyway.


    I said the "taking life" part was arguable at best. You're arguing it and I disagree with you. It still doesn't meet the requirements of murder. Your use of the term doesn't make any sense. You're just using it for emotional pull.
    It doesn't seem to effect you emotionally so what does it matter? If you kill someone who is 'unconscious', who has every chance of gaining consciousness, it is still murder. You just prefer not to think of it like that in order to continue your rationalization.

    1. People who are unconscious were conscious before and will be after their temporary lack of conscious (barring irreversibly comatose people). A fetus, like an embryo, never had consciousness - they only have the potential for conscious.
    As mentioned earlier they do have senses. And of course they are alive. We have the decision to let there be life and let that life continue or put to death. You choose death and I chose life. The issue seems clear.

    2. What is a human being? is a difficult question to answer. I believe that a fetus is human just as I believe a person in an irreversible coma is human - so it's not really a relevant question.
    Certainly it's a relevant question, it's what separates us from animals, and it is not a difficult question to answer. You just don't want to enter areas in which your strongly held belief makes you feel uncomfortable. But most moral questions are like that..
    Most women think about it before it happens and most women aren't happy to get it.
    So then there is premeditation.
    Counseling usually means emotional manipulation.
    Counseling means just what it says. Your concern seems to be that they might not choose abortion.
    Women can think for themselves.
    Obviously many of them cannot or they wouldn't be in that situation.

    Most human beings don't kill their young, which is why liberals don't have children and then kill them. Nice try though.
    As a matter of fact many Liberals are killing their children and most Conservatives are not. That is why the future tends to be Conservative.

    Really? Because most anti-war arguments are based on nothing being worth the life of a human beingi
    If only! Instead they are based on political ends, nothing more. Why do you suppose the Left always supported Communism? Because they valued human life?[QUOTE]

    And most anti-death penalty arguments are based on having problems with 1) The killing of innocent people. 2) Taking other people's life in general. Try harder.
    I understand the Left will stand up for criminals, just as they have for the Communists, Islamic fanatics, and a variety of dictators everywhere, while safely turning on their own government. Meanwhile the fetus is not even a living thing, much less a human being.

  7. #227
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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    Except here the point is that you were comparing a likely permanent condition to a temporary one. A fetus or embryo only has a temporary lack of consciousness that will quickly cease to be an issue. Comparing it to a situation where there will never be consciousness again is illogical. The issue with a temporary loss of consciousness is not that the person was conscious at some time, but that person is likely to be conscious again. It is the potential for consciousness in the future that changes attitudes.
    No. The comment that I was responding to was this:
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Where did I question the, "alive-ness", of a fetus at any given stage of development? Show me where I said that and I will post a vid of a fetus, "consciously", dodging the fork that an abortion doctor was trying to stick into it's brain.
    1. My comment explained that a response to stimuli does not denote consciousness. The comment had nothing to do with equating a "permanent condition to a temporary one".
    2. Re: your comment about "the potential for consciousness in the future" - I responded to that in the post that you just quoted. #224

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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    I don't think "killing children" is on the democratic platform.

    Raise taxes, provide universal healthcare, kill children. Yep that sounds about right.
    Of course not. They give the procedure a clinical name like abortion. Then they support the pretense the child isn't human by calling it a fetus and they do all of this under the guise of "Women's rights". In reality, they are children that are being killed and in most cases for no other reason than they just aren't convenient. That is the side the democrats have chosen.
    You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by ksu_aviator View Post
    Of course not. They give the procedure a clinical name like abortion. Then they support the pretense the child isn't human by calling it a fetus and they do all of this under the guise of "Women's rights". In reality, they are children that are being killed and in most cases for no other reason than they just aren't convenient. That is the side the democrats have chosen.
    The a gross simplification of the issue based on many subjective and unscientific assumptions. If were as simple as you put it, there wouldn't even be a debate.

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    Re: Late Clash on Abortion Shows Conservatives’ Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    The a gross simplification of the issue based on many subjective and unscientific assumptions. If were as simple as you put it, there wouldn't even be a debate.
    It is as simple as I put it. From the moment the sperm penetrates the egg, it is a human. Any other reclassification can only be explained as a response to the cognitive dissonance created as a result of killing an innocent child.
    You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

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