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Misbehaving Boy, 8, Pepper Sprayed By Police

The Cops had been called a couple of times before when this child monster was out-of-control. Whatever policy was used on the kid before did not work. I think they just wanted the kid to not want to have the Cops called again. Pavlov's dog and all that.
 
Zyphlin said:
"Use of Force" being anything where the cop physically interacts with the Kid.

Pepper Spray by itself has essentially a zero chance of causing any kind of bodily harm lasting more than a few hours. Any interaction physically with the child at least has a chance larger than 1% of potentially causing him some harm. Borken bone, sprained joint, significant bruise, cuts/scrapes...all of which are more long term harm than pepper spray would cause. Some of which would likely open up the cops for potential legal issues more than pepper spray
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It can cause blindness. Are there studies done on the pepper spray used and its affects on children? Is there a lower limit? If a 6 year old is throwing a tantrum, would you say it's best to use chemical agents on the child instead of picking them up? You kinda put numbers in this time, but are they real or did you imagine them?
 
Zyphlin said:
I'm sorry...is there something chemically about Pepper Spray that would make it affect an 8 y/o different than an 18 y/o?
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That's a good question. Do you have a real answer for it? I don't know if this has been tested on children to see what statistics and possible side effects could be.
 
Ikari said:
It can cause blindness. Are there studies done on the pepper spray used and its affects on children? Is there a lower limit? If a 6 year old is throwing a tantrum, would you say it's best to use chemical agents on the child instead of picking them up? You kinda put numbers in this time, but are they real or did you imagine them?
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I certainly see your point, but personally, anyone threatening to stab me, regardless of age, is going to be met with a faceful of OC. :mrgreen:
 
An 8 year old would only be threatening to me with a gun.
But I'm sure that piece of wood was really sharp. /s The fact that a cop could bicep curl the kid doesn't make him any less dangerous.
 
liblady said:
if a police officer can't control an 8 yr old without pepper spray, i think maybe they need to go back for more training. this is ridiculous.
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the problem is, the bedwetting hand-wringers won't allow them to lay hands on the little bugger. they were in a no win situation. if they had rushed him and taken the makeshift shank away from him, there would be some crybaby complaining about that as well. obviously it was going to take some kind of physical force to get this kid under control. contrary to popular liberal belief, you can't always talk someone down.
 
Ikari said:
It can cause blindness.
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Really? I've not see anything credible or substantial detailing blindness associated with pepper spray outside of for a few hours. Point me in the direction of this information?

Are there studies done on the pepper spray used and its affects on children? Is there a lower limit? If a 6 year old is throwing a tantrum, would you say it's best to use chemical agents on the child instead of picking them up? You kinda put numbers in this time, but are they real or did you imagine them?
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There's studies regarding the affects of pepper spray on humans in general. Are you suggesting something that is found to be almost harmless in the long term to an average person is likely to have significant side effects on a child? Are the eyes/nose between a child and adult that significantly different?

No, I wouldn't suggest a 6 year old throwing a tantrum to be pepper sprayed. I wouldn't compare a 6 year old throwing a tantrum to a 8 year old tossing televisions, actively attempting to reach people who have fled him to continue to hurt them, and knowingly searching out weapons for incase they "come out".

Every bit of information I've been able to find puts the chance for harm from pepper spray as astronomically low unless one has asthma. There's little reason to believe the near 0% sky rockets to some kind of significantly large number when children are involved.
 
Ikari said:
That's a good question. Do you have a real answer for it? I don't know if this has been tested on children to see what statistics and possible side effects could be.
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Does a bullet affect a 3 month old differnetly than it does a 300 month old? I don't think a scientific study has ever been conduct, obviously we can't make an educated assumption due to that.
 
theangryamerican said:
I certainly see your point, but personally, anyone threatening to stab me, regardless of age, is going to be met with a faceful of OC. :mrgreen:
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I'm not defending the kid. He acted like a damned brat and there had to be intervention of some type. He got pepper sprayed, maybe it'll teach him a lesson. Though the way the mom is reacting to this, it doesn't really seem like the lesson will be enforced. I just don't completely buy the "this would cause less harm" argument since it seems that no one really knows the stats on it.
 
apdst said:
Good thing that wasn't my kid. I wouldn't be posting at DP much for a few years, because I would be in jail for ****ing up some ***** ass cops.
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my kid wouldn't be breaking trim off the damn wall and trying to attack people with it. blame the frakin parents (or more likely parent) not the cops.
 
Zyphlin said:
Does a bullet affect a 3 month old differnetly than it does a 300 month old? I don't think a scientific study has ever been conduct, obviously we can't make an educated assumption due to that.
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Yes, but chemicals certainly affect children and adults differently. All I asked was if you had any data to support the claim you continuously make. If it were purely physical, I could potentially buy your "educated assumption" (though even physical attacks can have differences between adults and children, but due to the leathality of firearms a bullet most likely would not have any significant difference in affect).
 
Ikari said:
I'm not defending the kid. He acted like a damned brat and there had to be intervention of some type. He got pepper sprayed, maybe it'll teach him a lesson. Though the way the mom is reacting to this, it doesn't really seem like the lesson will be enforced. I just don't completely buy the "this would cause less harm" argument since it seems that no one really knows the stats on it.
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Hell, take the kid out of the equation.

In adults, what's going to have more of a chance of causing harm without meaning to. Physically engaging someone or pepper spraying them?

So now a cop is faced with a kid, with no detailed information regarding whether or not that understanding as to what is safer to do with an adult is different or not for a kid. So should the cop not act because he's not sure, acted on the best case assumption which is that while perhaps the kid's body may be slightly more prone to pepper spray its also likely to be slightly more prone to physical harm, or is the educated guess that the situation is 180 degrees with a kid and pepper spray would be the more dangerous route?
 
Zyphlin said:
There's studies regarding the affects of pepper spray on humans in general. Are you suggesting something that is found to be almost harmless in the long term to an average person is likely to have significant side effects on a child? Are the eyes/nose between a child and adult that significantly different?
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The way chemicals can act on children and adults can indeed be different. Do you give adult strength medication to children? Why or why not? Also certain resilencies can be different with chemicals between adults and children. It's not a bullet, it's a chemical and there can be different degrees of effects between children and adults.
 
Zyphlin said:
Hell, take the kid out of the equation.

In adults, what's going to have more of a chance of causing harm without meaning to. Physically engaging someone or pepper spraying them?

So now a cop is faced with a kid, with no detailed information regarding whether or not that understanding as to what is safer to do with an adult is different or not for a kid. So should the cop not act because he's not sure, acted on the best case assumption which is that while perhaps the kid's body may be slightly more prone to pepper spray its also likely to be slightly more prone to physical harm, or is the educated guess that the situation is 180 degrees with a kid and pepper spray would be the more dangerous route?
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I'm not saying the cops shouldn't have acted. I'm not saying the kid didn't deserve it. I'm not saying they have a case for police brutality. I merely said I do not buy the "it was safer for him" argument.
 
Ikari said:
Yes, but chemicals certainly affect children and adults differently. All I asked was if you had any data to support the claim you continuously make. If it were purely physical, I could potentially buy your "educated assumption" (though even physical attacks can have differences between adults and children, but due to the leathality of firearms a bullet most likely would not have any significant difference in affect).
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I'm not making a scientific claim. I'm speaking purely based on my understanding and research on pepper spray in general, which routinely comes up that except in very freak circumstances it has no lasting effects, and based on the realities of interacting with anyone physically be it in a fight, in law enforcement, in a sport, rough housing around the house, etc. And then I was asking for peoples opinions, and at least asking for them to have some reason to back it up.

I can back up my assertions with regards to pepper spray with links to comments regarding its safety. I can link to numerous stories where people interacting phsyically, even when not meaning to cause physical harm that lasts, actually does that. And enough of it to show that its far more common then what the experts say the risks of Pepper spray are.

All I'm asking is for the people saying pepper spray isn't the safer option is for them to provide some kind of backing for why. Saying "Well, you don't have a study saying it is just the same for kids" isn't provindg some kind of evidence to the contrary, its just complaining about what's been presented so far.

I'm not saying this is a scientific absolute. I'm saying based on facts I'm seeing that seems to be the case. If people can present some kind of facts, not just "umm...I disagree cause I disagree"...then i'd be happy to change my view.
 
theangryamerican said:
I certainly see your point, but personally, anyone threatening to stab me, regardless of age, is going to be met with a faceful of OC. :mrgreen:
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That's fine. As I said, I'm not defending the kid. I'm not saying the police over reacted. They handled the situation fine, the kid was acting out and posing a threat; he got pepper sprayed. Shouldn't act like that, particularly against others, if you don't want to get pepper sprayed. The mom, instead of making the talk show circuit, should enforce this lesson on her child.
 
Ikari said:
Yes, but chemicals certainly affect children and adults differently. All I asked was if you had any data to support the claim you continuously make. If it were purely physical, I could potentially buy your "educated assumption" (though even physical attacks can have differences between adults and children, but due to the leathality of firearms a bullet most likely would not have any significant difference in affect).
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not many "chemicals" in pepper spray:

The active ingredient in pepper spray is capsaicin, which is a chemical derived from the fruit of plants in the Capsicum genus, including chilis (aka peppers, hence the name "pepper spray")

the capsaicin is extracted from the ground fruit using a solvent like ethanol (aka the alcohol in liquor, wine and beer)

it is then suspended in water using an emulsifier like propylene glycol (a colorless, nearly odorless, clear, viscous liquid with a faintly sweet taste, also an alcohol)


and then pressurized to make it an aerosol.

there are no dangerous, harmful chemicals used in making OC spray
 
apdst said:
Oh, so now I'm a bad parent? :rofl
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I don't believe I said that.

I will say you're a bad role model, since you have expressed a desire to **** up some cops to 'see what they are make of'. So sue me.
 
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If my kid is acting a fool and threatening people with sharp objects, I'd have no problem with 5-O tackling his dumbass, OC spraying his dumb ass, or tasering his dumbass. THEN...they should come to my house and OC spray me for being a ****ty parent
 
Ikari said:
That's fine. As I said, I'm not defending the kid. I'm not saying the police over reacted. They handled the situation fine, the kid was acting out and posing a threat; he got pepper sprayed. Shouldn't act like that, particularly against others, if you don't want to get pepper sprayed. The mom, instead of making the talk show circuit, should enforce this lesson on her child.
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This statement I'm very much in agreement with. :)
 
MaggieD said:
Occurs to me we would be having a different discussion had the boy had a fatal allergic reaction to its active ingredient. The NYC PD reports that allergic reactions happen to 1 out of 100. (That's "reactions", not fatal reactions.)http://www.nyc.gov/html/ccrb/pdf/pepperreport.pdf
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Isn't it flawed to say that a substance which is intentionally made to be an irritant causes reactions? That's the whole point of OC... If it didn't have any effects, you might as well use a squirt gun on people. :2razz:

From your link:
Intended results of the use of pepper
spray are inflammation and swelling of the mucous membranes of the eye, nose, and throat and
involuntary closure of the eyes. Known side effects include coughing, gagging, and
hyperventilation
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MaggieD said:
Occurs to me we would be having a different discussion had the boy had a fatal allergic reaction to its active ingredient. The NYC PD reports that allergic reactions happen to 1 out of 100. (That's "reactions", not fatal reactions.)http://www.nyc.gov/html/ccrb/pdf/pepperreport.pdf
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we'd also be having a different discussion if the cops had done nothing and the kid had stabbed someone in their ****ing throat.
 
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