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Thread: Misbehaving Boy, 8, Pepper Sprayed By Police

  1. #271
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    Re: Misbehaving Boy, 8, Pepper Sprayed By Police

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    if a police officer can't control an 8 yr old without pepper spray, i think maybe they need to go back for more training. this is ridiculous.
    I think that you have been greatly blessed. It would appear that you have never encountered a truly berserk 8yo who is truly willing to inflict grave bodily harm on others, and has a weapon in hand and will use it.

    It is not quite as simple a picture as you paint it.

    Twenty years ago, the child would have been physically subdued. Depending on how violently and effectively he fought, physical subdual may have resulted in bruises, or in a broken wrist or dislocated shoulder as the police attempted to remove the weapon from his possession. It is also possible the police would have been injured, perhaps severely; again, depending on how viciously the berserk child fought. 20 years ago, tasers and OC weren't as widely available or widely used by police. There's a REASON why cops use tasers and OC these days: it cuts down on injury to both perps and officers.

    A truly berserk 8yo with a stabbing implement and the will to attack all-out is perfectly capable of killing an adult, if the adult doesn't defend himself vigorously. It has happened. That vigorous defense may result in bodily harm to the child that is worse than OC.

    There are liability issues involved, as well as department policy issues. It may very well be that the police were FORBIDDEN by dept policy to attempt to physically disarm the child while the child was in possession of a stabbing implement. These days, most dept's frown on physical subdual of armed subjects and mandate the use of OC or Taser.


    If that had been MY child... I'd have been glad that the police subdued him without serious harm, and that they stopped him from actually stabbing someone and thereby getting himself in even WORSE trouble.
    Last edited by Goshin; 04-10-11 at 10:27 AM.

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    Re: Misbehaving Boy, 8, Pepper Sprayed By Police

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Patrick View Post
    Yes, I'm sure the officers on the scene could not subdue the cunning 8 year old wielding a piece of wood trim without using pepper spray. They may have gotten a splinter!
    You've obviously never seen anyone get "shanked" with an improvised stabbing weapon. I have. The results were a lot more gruesome than just splinters.

    Unfortunately there are some 8yo's these days who are capable of levels of violence almost undreamed-of 20 years ago.

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    Re: Misbehaving Boy, 8, Pepper Sprayed By Police

    Quote Originally Posted by Mason66 View Post
    Again, where is the father.
    A valid question for society to ask...but not responding police officers. For this case...tghis instance...the police officers came in and subdued a raging out of control 8 year old with no physical contact or violence. Kids eyes got burned a bit...he found it hard to believe. Sure as heck cleaned out his sinuses. Straightened his little ass out pretty quick, tho...right? No one hurt...no bruising, no damage.

    All the people that say they would have done it differently...my guess is they haven't often "done it." Adpst, who says he definitely would do it different as a father...him I believe...but then...I highly doubt we would see his kids in this boat.

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    Re: Misbehaving Boy, 8, Pepper Sprayed By Police

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    A valid question for society to ask...but not responding police officers. For this case...tghis instance...the police officers came in and subdued a raging out of control 8 year old with no physical contact or violence. Kids eyes got burned a bit...he found it hard to believe. Sure as heck cleaned out his sinuses. Straightened his little ass out pretty quick, tho...right? No one hurt...no bruising, no damage.

    All the people that say they would have done it differently...my guess is they haven't often "done it." Adpst, who says he definitely would do it different as a father...him I believe...but then...I highly doubt we would see his kids in this boat.
    I saw this kid on Fox News last night. He looks a little dull. He had obviously been coached as to what to say.

    He is a very angry child and by his own admission, he doesn't know why.

    His mother and grandmother excuse it by saying he was picked on by other students and the teachers did nothing, even though he never told his mother or grandmother it was happening. I would say it wasn't.

    No father to be seen anywhere.

    As to your point, I agree, the police are not social workers, they are there to difuse the situation using the tools they have at hand.

    The child had already challenged the officers and stated he was trying to harm his classmates and teacher, so I think he got off lightly.

    If he would have hurt an officer he would have a criminal record.

    The kid says he wants to become a Marine when he grows up. I don't think he has the character for it. Too much lying.

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    Re: Misbehaving Boy, 8, Pepper Sprayed By Police

    Quote Originally Posted by Mason66 View Post
    The kid says he wants to become a Marine when he grows up. I don't think he has the character for it. Too much lying.
    This is the big elephant in the room no one talks about in the age of 'blame it all on some psychological disorder'. The stigma will follow these kids throughout their lives and they will never have a chance. It will affect their ability to get a job, get a driver's license, join the military, get credit and also to get insurance among many other things we take for granted in life. Thank you very much American Psychiatric Association.

    I'm not saying there aren't real cases of psychosis but good lord, it has gotten out of hand. All in the name of drumming up more business. Shame, shame, shame on them. Whenever I see a kid like this one who spouts some mumbo-jumbo about their disorder it makes me cringe. No kid could come up with it on their own. It has been drummed into their heads that they are deficient and that they therefore have an excuse for adding badly.

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    Re: Misbehaving Boy, 8, Pepper Sprayed By Police

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Unfortunately there are some 8yo's these days who are capable of levels of violence almost undreamed-of 20 years ago.
    case in point...
    8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father

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    Re: Misbehaving Boy, 8, Pepper Sprayed By Police

    Quote Originally Posted by Whovian View Post
    I saw an ~8 year old boy in Iraq try to slit a soldier's throat with a shank hidden under his robe.
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    Re: Misbehaving Boy, 8, Pepper Sprayed By Police

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I think that you have been greatly blessed. It would appear that you have never encountered a truly berserk 8yo who is truly willing to inflict grave bodily harm on others, and has a weapon in hand and will use it.

    It is not quite as simple a picture as you paint it.
    A simple thanks on this post isn't enough. This is why I was hoping to see you or Caine show up in the thread. I'd love to see your take on "taking it to the next level" that apdst spoke that all cops are taught not to do. IE they shouldn't have pepper sprayed the kid because that was "taking it to the next level" because he wasn't actively stabbing anyone (but somehow subduing him wouldn't be "taking it to the next level"). The whole thing from apdst made little sense to me as it was horribly illogical, especially considering what he was saying, but perhaps you could explain it better.

    Glad to see that my thoughts regarding which way was safer, and liability, were correct though.

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    Re: Misbehaving Boy, 8, Pepper Sprayed By Police

    Quote Originally Posted by Mason66 View Post
    apdst, if this was your kid and this had happened, what would you do to him afterwards?

    Would you punish him further?

    After all his behaviour is a reflection on your parenting skills.
    I don't have sons (thank God) but if he were my son, he would be grounded FOREVER with everything taken out of his room except his bed, dresser, desk and books... no MP3, no iPod, no video games, no TV... nothing... I am sick of these spoiled brats...
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    Re: Misbehaving Boy, 8, Pepper Sprayed By Police

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    A simple thanks on this post isn't enough. This is why I was hoping to see you or Caine show up in the thread. I'd love to see your take on "taking it to the next level" that apdst spoke that all cops are taught not to do. IE they shouldn't have pepper sprayed the kid because that was "taking it to the next level" because he wasn't actively stabbing anyone (but somehow subduing him wouldn't be "taking it to the next level"). The whole thing from apdst made little sense to me as it was horribly illogical, especially considering what he was saying, but perhaps you could explain it better.

    Glad to see that my thoughts regarding which way was safer, and liability, were correct though.

    An anecdote or two from my cop days might help explain things a bit.

    We're taught and trained to respect edged/pointed weapons. We watch videos that show officers getting stabbed by perps, that show how a perp can run 25' and stab you in the time it takes to draw and fire twice. We see pics of cops that didn't go home, pics that show their death wounds by knives, and it is quite gruesome. We're taught that any perp with a edged/pointed weapon who is inside 25' and moving forward is SHOOTABLE. We're taught to try to keep 25' from any perp that has a blade or shank during any attempt to "negotiate a surrender".

    Now consider a classroom with a berserk 8 year old in it, holding a shank (improvised stabbing implement), and likely pacing around like a caged tiger, making threats. Hard to keep 25' from him at all times, and to make sure no one else gets too close to him, etc.

    "Take control of the scene" is one police adage. "Neutralize imminent threats of grave bodily harm" is another.

    I once did a "negotiated surrender" of a perp who had an edged weapon. He had it in his hand, but he wasn't running around making threats. He stood in one place and didn't move while I talked to him, which is a good thing for him; if he'd moved towards me or anyone else he'd have gotten shot. If we'd had tasers back then, or if I'd been carrying OC at the time, he would have gotten sprayed or zapped if he didn't cooperate immediately. You can't take chances with this stuff; the human body is fragile and very very vulnerable to stabs. A 2" blade can create a 4" deep wound through tissue compression, and there are a number of places on the body where a 4" deep stab can be fatal or at least life-threatening.

    Even in my day, nearly a decade-and-a-half past, we were taught to take knives and shanks VERY seriously. Nowadays they have tasers and everyone has OC. That's good because it reduces injuries and deaths of suspects and officers alike. If you've never tried to grapple with someone who has an edged weapon you don't know how hairy that is, how easily someone can suffer a critical injury.

    Probably most people don't know how much effort is required to drive a pointed object between someone's ribs and into their lung. Regrettably, I do know exactly how much effort is required, and it is almost effortless. A healthy 8yo boy could do it with ease.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

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