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Thread: U.S. to pull strike jets from Libya mission

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    Re: U.S. to pull strike jets from Libya mission

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Mars View Post
    I sure hope that's right SB.

    Gaddafi is a survivor and will not leave unless he's forced out.
    I'm not sure if Obama (or maybe it was Gates) who mentioned this, but I think it is important to give him an out. People like Gaddafi are most dangerous when they are backed into a corner with nowhere to go. The flip side of the equation is, there's not much incentive for Gaddafi to give up and go into exile if he knows the international community will bring him before the ICC the moment he does so, so you might have a point Ron.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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    Re: U.S. to pull strike jets from Libya mission

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    What's the matter with the French, why can't they change the direction in Libya?
    Why can't ANYONE change the direction in Libya? Because there is a disconnect between stated goals and stated means. The international community wants Gaddafi out of Libya. In reality however, a no-fly zone is a pretty piss-poor way to effect regime change.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: U.S. to pull strike jets from Libya mission

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    What's the matter with the French, why can't they change the direction in Libya?
    Didnt read the playbook from VietNam?

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    Re: U.S. to pull strike jets from Libya mission

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Why can't ANYONE change the direction in Libya? Because there is a disconnect between stated goals and stated means. The international community wants Gaddafi out of Libya. In reality however, a no-fly zone is a pretty piss-poor way to effect regime change.
    As shown in Iraq, of course in Iraq that was never the reason for the no fly zone. But hey, let's not let that get in the way of the current politicians of the "international" community. The EU (NATO minus US) is proving to be weak, and showing that they can't step up without the US. This is not just a criticism, it's a ****ing concern. Why can't we ever count them to do anything on their own; besides criticize us of course?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: U.S. to pull strike jets from Libya mission

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Why can't ANYONE change the direction in Libya? Because there is a disconnect between stated goals and stated means. The international community wants Gaddafi out of Libya. In reality however, a no-fly zone is a pretty piss-poor way to effect regime change.
    0bama could change the direction if he decided to take decisive action. He could do that today.

    If the US accepts a situation where Gaddafi remains in power it will be a disaster for the President and the country.
    The national security of the United States can never be left in the hands of liberals.

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    Re: U.S. to pull strike jets from Libya mission

    This is why if you are going to get involved in wars, you need a damn plan. Obama should not have called for Qadaffi's removal if he didn't actually plan to actually do get it done. If he had instead consistently promoted a message of "we are only stopping the slaughter not getting involved in local politics" this would actually make sense. Still, the overall result is little more than a missed opportunity rather than a complete disaster so I'll give Obama credit on that front at least.

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    Re: U.S. to pull strike jets from Libya mission

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Mars View Post
    0bama could change the direction if he decided to take decisive action. He could do that today.

    If the US accepts a situation where Gaddafi remains in power it will be a disaster for the President and the country.
    All we're doing in Libya is showing everyone that we a busy-bodies in everything, and that the EU is weak. There is no national interested in Libya, therefore we should have stayed out. Now they'll say we can't ever stay out of anything, and Iraq/Afghanistan will look more like world policing than going in for a reason such as 9/11 and/or oil. Those are national interests.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: U.S. to pull strike jets from Libya mission

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    This is why if you are going to get involved in wars, you need a damn plan. Obama should not have called for Qadaffi's removal if he didn't actually plan to actually do get it done. If he had instead consistently promoted a message of "we are only stopping the slaughter not getting involved in local politics" this would actually make sense. Still, the overall result is little more than a missed opportunity rather than a complete disaster so I'll give Obama credit on that front at least.
    The disaster is that no one is going to take him seriously when he says such things again.

    He will have much more difficulty building coalitions in the future if his words are percieved as rhetoric instead of an actual cohesive policy.
    The national security of the United States can never be left in the hands of liberals.

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    Re: U.S. to pull strike jets from Libya mission

    So much for the U.S. not doing the heavy lifting.

    Nato lacking strike aircraft for Libya campaign | World news | guardian.co.uk

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    Re: U.S. to pull strike jets from Libya mission

    I don't see how many conservatives don't support this decision by Obama. Many people often complain that Europe is too dependent on US forces to keep the peace and do their dirty business while they sit back and do nothing, this is the equivalent of throwing a kid in the deep end so he learns how to swim. He's forcing them to live up their words with actual action, or at the very least that seems to be the plan.

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