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Thread: GOP 2012 budget to make $4 trillion-plus in cuts

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    Re: GOP 2012 budget to make $4 trillion-plus in cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    While I agree with this completely, anything short of a mob in the street and public beheadings won't get this done.

    The tax code is complicated and befuddling by design. To get rid of it would be to virtually eliminate any and all power held by those we elect. They won't give that up, either side, without anything short of civil war.
    To a liberal rate means more than dollars collected because liberals ignore personal behavior and incentive. To a liberal when rates go up individual behavior never changes as they ignore reality. Reagan cut income taxes 10-10-5% over three years and Income tax revenue almost doubled. Liberals say that when you cut taxes 10% that nothing changes in behavior and revenue goes down. Facts simply are ignored.

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    Re: GOP 2012 budget to make $4 trillion-plus in cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Some issues:



    Unfortunately, that would eliminate 40%-50% of the tax base, meaning the tax rates would have to be quite high to raise revenue similar to current levels of revenue.

    U.S. Department of Commerce. Bureau of Economic Analysis

    Indeed, I believe this tax base issue is the reason Dick Armey proposed a flat tax with no deductions other than a large personal exemption. His flat tax plan contained no mortgage interest deduction, no state/local taxes deduction, etc., but offered a very low tax rate.



    Exempting only raw materials would create a bias in favor of firms that consume a lot of raw materials. Hence, among other things, professional services firms would be at a decided disadvantage relative to manufacturing firms when it comes to the tax code, even as knowledge/information-intensive industries are growing relatively more important on a global basis.
    I respectfully disagree. By taxing raw materials, then you are essentially taxing the same product twice.
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    Re: GOP 2012 budget to make $4 trillion-plus in cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    To a liberal rate means more than dollars collected because liberals ignore personal behavior and incentive. To a liberal when rates go up individual behavior never changes as they ignore reality. Reagan cut income taxes 10-10-5% over three years and Income tax revenue almost doubled. Liberals say that when you cut taxes 10% that nothing changes in behavior and revenue goes down. Facts simply are ignored.
    You mean like all of the tax deductions that were eliminated along with that reduction in rate?
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    Re: GOP 2012 budget to make $4 trillion-plus in cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    You mean like all of the tax deductions that were eliminated along with that reduction in rate?
    No, like all the revenue that was generated when the Reagan tax rate cuts were put into place. Federal Income tax revenue doubled, how do you explain that? People and businesses keeping more of their money stimulates the consumer driven economy and creates new taxpayers. That is what liberals never understand. There has to be incentive to create jobs and economic growth does that.

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    Re: GOP 2012 budget to make $4 trillion-plus in cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    I respectfully disagree. By taxing raw materials, then you are essentially taxing the same product twice.
    I'm not suggesting that raw materials need to be taxed, only that raw materials, alone should not be subject to favorable tax treatment. A value added tax gets around the problem by levying a tax only on the value that is added to a product/service at each stage of the value chain. Dick Armey's flat tax proposal used the formula gross revenue less the sum of purchases of goods and services/capital equipment/structures/land/wages to arrive at taxable income for companies. Raw materials would be included in the cost of goods purchased. However, a labor-intensive business would not be at a disadvantage, as wages would be completely tax deductible.

    Fringe benefits would not have been deductible by companies under the Armey proposal. Why? Because the proposal chose not to tax such benefits as income at the individual level. Therefore, to assure tax neutrality, namely that all income streams would be taxed, but only once, the stage of taxation would have occurred at the business-level (via non-deductibility of fringe benefits).

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    Re: GOP 2012 budget to make $4 trillion-plus in cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    No, like all the revenue that was generated when the Reagan tax rate cuts were put into place. Federal Income tax revenue doubled, how do you explain that? People and businesses keeping more of their money stimulates the consumer driven economy and creates new taxpayers. That is what liberals never understand. There has to be incentive to create jobs and economic growth does that.
    A lot of middle class deductions went away when the tax rates were reduced. Do you remember that?
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    Re: GOP 2012 budget to make $4 trillion-plus in cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    A lot of middle class deductions went away when the tax rates were reduced. Do you remember that?
    Yes like interest deduction on Credit cards but what does that have to do with people keeping more of their money. So they lose deductions but have more income on each paycheck? I enjoyed it, paid down personal debt and thus credit purchases.

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    Re: GOP 2012 budget to make $4 trillion-plus in cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh_Akston View Post
    A flat tax would eliminate the IRS, eliminate the gargantuan tax code, eliminate loopholes that companies like GE utilize and everyone pays their fair share. Everyone pays the same percentage on what they purchase. You purchase more, you pay more in taxes.

    I figured out roughly what I would be paying a couple of years ago. I would be paying about $450-500 more per year in taxes and the government would save billions by eliminating the IRS. It's a win-win for government (more in revenue generated from taxes and eliminating the money pit that the IRS is). Of course the "tax the evil rich bastards" crowd would never go for such a thing, even though it makes complete sense and saves the government billions per year while generating more in tax revenue.
    First of all when most people talk of a flat tax, they are talking about individual taxes not corporate taxes so not sure what you are saying regarding any corporation let alone GE which generates much of it's income outside the U.S. so probably would not be taxable here.

    As to your calculation wonder how you did that. First of all most flat tax proposals will still have some sort of personal exemption, which would be a large source of debate so what you used here may or may not be right or close to right. Also a flat tax is still a rate, who knows what rate government will use. Lastly circumstances change for any individual. So for example if you were a renter when you calculated, and now own a home then losing the mortgage deduction would make a big change, same with if someone had high medical costs in a year or gave a lot to charity.

    People think of deductions as lookholes. Many are. Others are there for social or economic prurposes. Again in the mortgage deduction example. If you or anyone is a homeowner have you included in your calculation the loss in value in your home as mortgages will now be an after tax event versus a before tax item.

    Every hard problem i.e. tax revenues has a thousand easy answers, most of which are wrong.

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    Re: GOP 2012 budget to make $4 trillion-plus in cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Councilman View Post
    I see this as a good thing but I also know that if cuts are too deep too fast it can have a negative impact on the economy.

    I also don't want to see individuals hurt by unreasonable cuts in some social programs.

    Don't get me wrong I still believe as I have said before that many of these programs do their very best to make people dependent on them and they kill individual incentive for people to do better.

    If the right balance can be maintained, I believe that the prospect of a balanced budget or even a serious attack on the deficit will have a positive affect and encourage people and that always has a positive affect on the Stock Market and therefore the economy and job market as a whole.

    We'll now see the reaction of the Left
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    Re: GOP 2012 budget to make $4 trillion-plus in cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    To a liberal rate means more than dollars collected because liberals ignore personal behavior and incentive. To a liberal when rates go up individual behavior never changes as they ignore reality. Reagan cut income taxes 10-10-5% over three years and Income tax revenue almost doubled. Liberals say that when you cut taxes 10% that nothing changes in behavior and revenue goes down. Facts simply are ignored.
    No, liberals do not say that.
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    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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