Stalemate in Libya Increasingly Viewed as Likely Outcome

ric27 · Apr 3, 2011

Ron Mars said:
I don't believe we are trying to police the whole world just those parts where we can have a positive effect.

The central point here is to limit our activity in the ME. Lets not try to create democracies or even tear down dictatorships unless they become a threat to American interests, which are largely described as our people.

If Tom, Dick or Harry teh bearded dude wants to oppress their own people, but don't chop off American heads or help those who do, we gotta leave them alone. We can't fix all their problems and removing one dictator is just as likely to result in another one who is anti-American.

Think of it as musical chairs with dictators sitting on 'em. Its a never ending cycle of despair

Ron Mars · Apr 3, 2011

ric27 said:
The central point here is to limit our activity in the ME. Lets not try to create democracies or even tear down dictatorships unless they become a threat to American interests, which are largely described as our people.

It's in our national interest to have as many free and peaceful nations in the world as possible.

Where there is a chance to change a dictatorship into a free nation we should always take that chance.

ric27 said:
Think of it as musical chairs with dictators sitting on 'em. Its a never ending cycle of despair

That's a good analogy and IMO that applies to nations like the Ivory Coast and Darfur.

The liberation of the South Korean people was worth the sacrifice.

apdst · Apr 3, 2011

ric27 said:
We would be better served if we stopped trying to police the world. It gets us few friends and a lot of enemies. We should simplify things. If you aren't against us, you may not be on our friend list, but at least you aren't on the enemy ledger.

America must change its foreign policy across the board. If we believe in individual freedom, then unless we're hypocritical, other nations have the right to decide what form of government they want.

I don't have a problem with the U.S. policing the knot-heads of the world. However, I do have a problem when we do it half-assed, as we've seen here.

Grant · Apr 3, 2011

Libya will be another Egypt.

Recall the efforts to get rid of that 'thug' Mubarak so that Egyptians would be free and democracy flourish?

Egypt extends olive branch to Iran; seeks to normalize ties - International Business Times

Ron Mars · Apr 3, 2011

Grant said:
Libya will be another Egypt.

Recall the efforts to get rid of that 'thug' Mubarak so that Egyptians would be free and democracy flourish?

Where the hell is the leader of the free world? We need strong leadership right now.

0bama is missing an opportunity to take advantage of the uprisings all over the ME.

I can hear the jihadis now: "See, the infidel doesn't care about you. We can help you. Join us."

ric27 · Apr 3, 2011

I see them turning more fundamentalist Muslim when the current governments fall....One by one

Remember President Obama calling for Mubarak to step down? Mubarek kept the peace with Israel and reduced tensions in the ME. So tell us how that makes him such a bad guy?

Has there been a revolution or coup in the Arab world that actually turned out well for people in the last century? I can't think of any so from a historical perspective, the odds are much more in line with things getting worse, not better.

Sad but true

Grant · Apr 4, 2011

Ron Mars said:
Where the hell is the leader of the free world? We need strong leadership right now.

0bama is missing an opportunity to take advantage of the uprisings all over the ME.

I can hear the jihadis now: "See, the infidel doesn't care about you. We can help you. Join us."

I honestly don't understand it, unless it is deliberate.

That seems like an Occam's Razor explanation and yet that's also too strange and conspiratorial to seriously contemplate. It sounds too much like a Mel Gibson movie script.

Ron Mars · Apr 4, 2011

Grant said:
I honestly don't understand it, unless it is deliberate.

That seems like an Occam's Razor explanation and yet that's also too strange and conspiratorial to seriously contemplate. It sounds too much like a Mel Gibson movie script.

Which part?

Obama missing an opportunity or jihadis trying to step into the vacuum?

Whovian · Apr 4, 2011

The Prof said:
from obama's libya address monday:

RealClearPolitics - Video - Obama's Speech On Libya: "We Have Stopped Gaddafi's Deadly Advance"

two days later:

Libyan Rebels Forced Into Retreat Near Sirte as Obama Considers Direct Aid - Bloomberg

obama, march 18:

Obama to Members of Congress: Action Versus Libya to Last 'Days not Weeks' - Political Punch

are you sure this guy knows what he's doing?

That secnond one can't be right. It's some vast right-wing conspiracy... Obama said we stopped the advance.

Grant · Apr 4, 2011

Ron Mars said:
Which part?

Obama missing an opportunity or jihadis trying to step into the vacuum?

The not understanding that if Mubarek was out of the picture his suceessors would go along with Iran. Did he not know this, or give it any thought?

And now the cry that Gadaffi must be replaced. By whom?

On another thread there is a lot of talk about that Florida Pastor who many feel caused the deaths of UN workers by threatening or burning the Koran and then, months later, UN workers were attacked,

This is very similar to the Danish cartoons where the riots and murders didn't take place until over a year after the cartoons were published, and with a couple more cartoons added by the Imams for good measure.

I don't believe that these riots which killed the UN workers was spontaneous, nor do I believe it was about that Florida pastor. I believe we are facing an enemy much smarter than we are and our leadership either knows that, ignores it, or is helpless to do anything about it.

Ron Mars · Apr 4, 2011

Grant said:
The not understanding that if Mubarek was out of the picture his suceessors would go along with Iran. Did he not know this, or give it any thought?

And now the cry that Gadaffi must be replaced. By whom?

That the current Egyptian leaders are sending feelers to Iran is a concern no doubt. The new Iraqi government did the same thing. We have to let the people of Egypt and the other nations in political turmoil decide their own fate. Obviously you believe they will not be successful in establishing a free and peaceful nation. You may be right.

We need to seize the moment and do everything we can to ensure these nations become free and peaceful and reject jihadis.

Grant said:
On another thread there is a lot of talk about that Florida Pastor who many feel caused the deaths of UN workers by threatening or burning the Koran and then, months later, UN workers were attacked,

This is very similar to the Danish cartoons where the riots and murders didn't take place until over a year after the cartoons were published, and with a couple more cartoons added by the Imams for good measure.

I don't believe that these riots which killed the UN workers was spontaneous, nor do I believe it was about that Florida pastor. I believe we are facing an enemy much smarter than we are and our leadership either knows that, ignores it, or is helpless to do anything about it.

Good points but I don't believe they are smarter than we are.

We confine ourselves with rules of engagement and jihadis take advantage of that. They are intelligent and very resourceful.

jihadis are like no other enemy we have faced and all of our leaders are struggling with how to defeat them. We finally started to fight them seriously after 9/11.

This latest jihadi uprising will not be defeated solely on the battlefield. We have to let the people of these nations decide for themselves.

We need to do everything we can to convince them that following the jihadis is not the way to go if they desire to join the free and peaceful nations of the world.

Grant · Apr 4, 2011

Ron Mars said:
Ron Mars said:

That the current Egyptian leaders are sending feelers to Iran is a concern no doubt. The new Iraqi government did the same thing. We have to let the people of Egypt and the other nations in political turmoil decide their own fate. Obviously you believe they will not be successful in establishing a free and peaceful nation. You may be right.

We need to seize the moment and do everything we can to ensure these nations become free and peaceful and reject jihadis.

Click to expand...

But how are 'the people' to do that? They don't have the power of the ballot box, the media, or the gun. Also, for the most part, they are deeply religious and not terribly well educated, in the liberal sense of the word. If the Middle East becomes one, under Iranian leadership, then it can be a real game changer. That's especially true if we have weak leadership. And the US President, who in a way represents all democracies, claiming that the US had committed past sins did not serve us (the democracies) well. It only fortified their arguments that we are all Great Satans.

I don't want to get all conspiratorial but it is often necessary to look at the future and consider all outcomes.

If Iran gets nukes, if they lead a united Islamic revolution, and if those Muslims already entrenched in the Western societies rise up, what is the west to do?

The military will be no help if civilians, just bunches at a time, are the target. We will never go nuclear because there is not just one country to bomb. It is not a war in a traditional sense, which makes us quite unprepared to fight it.

We would have to think like a Jihadist, or a well educated group of Jihadists, in order to fight against them, and it doesn't seem we are doing that, at least on the surface anyway. Certainly the public doesn't follow it much until t makes headlines, and then it gets a little scary.

Good points but I don't believe they are smarter than we are.

We confine ourselves with rules of engagement and jihadis take advantage of that. They are intelligent and very resourceful.

jihadis are like no other enemy we have faced and all of our leaders are struggling with how to defeat them. We finally started to fight them seriously after 9/11.

This latest jihadi uprising will not be defeated solely on the battlefield. We have to let the people of these nations decide for themselves.

We need to do everything we can to convince them that following the jihadis is not the way to go if they desire to join the free and peaceful nations of the world.

Click to expand...

I hope you are right and I tend to think you are. Canada has been able to arrest several potential terrorists, so far, who have been captured in the very early conspiratorial stages, and the sentences are getting much longer for those found guilty. It is no longer just a slap on the wrist. And if there has been any torture it has never been made public.

I'd still like to see a stronger US President though and more people from all countries able to recognize the threat democracies face. This does not mean we should be attacking Muslims but it does mean we should strongly support traditional western values and insist Muslims adapt to out laws and customs, rather than any of the reverse.

Ron Mars · Apr 4, 2011

Grant said:
But how are 'the people' to do that? They don't have the power of the ballot box, the media, or the gun.

They are fighting back and they are losing at the moment. For me one of the most important aspects of intervention is whether or not the people are willing to fight for their freedom.

The Libyan people have to fight if they plan to shed Gaddafi and fight even harder if they desire to create and keep a peaceful nation.

Grant said:
We would have to think like a Jihadist, or a well educated group of Jihadists, in order to fight against them, and it doesn't seem we are doing that, at least on the surface anyway. Certainly the public doesn't follow it much until t makes headlines, and then it gets a little scary.

Most of the hidden battles are intelligence gathering, tracking, and identifying jihadis.

A lot of that happens will happen in secret for obvious reasons.

Grant said:
I'd still like to see a stronger US President though and more people from all countries able to recognize the threat democracies face. This does not mean we should be attacking Muslims but it does mean we should strongly support traditional western values and insist Muslims adapt to out laws and customs, rather than any of the reverse.

I couldn't agree more.