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Thread: Stalemate in Libya Increasingly Viewed as Likely Outcome

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    Re: Stalemate in Libya Increasingly Viewed as Likely Outcome

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    With all of his military advisors, ambassadors, diplomats, the CIA, etc., etc., he can damn well figure out what's in the best interests of the United States. Problem is he has politics on his mind, in my opinion.

    I say that because I think they all do. Except George Bush in Iraq and Afghanistan. Because of what had happened in the United States, I honestly believe he thought he was acting in the best interests of the United States. Obama? Not so much. Not so much at all.
    "War is merely a continuation of politics by other means." - Carl von Clausewitz. It is a fact of life that foreign policy and domestic politics are intertwined, even more so in a democracy.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Stalemate in Libya Increasingly Viewed as Likely Outcome

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshabar View Post
    I agree with you this one was tough. Except there were very clear considerations. We don't use Libya's light sweet oil. This is an issue for France especially but much of Europe also. We are spread thin and don't need anymore enemies in the Middle East. The mainstream media, most especially CNN in my view, made this one look attractive because they made it a romantic and appealing rescue mission.

    Basing this action on humanitarian goals was ridiculous and it set a precident we could never live up to IF anyone believed it was true. No one does. Not even the man who said it.
    Qaddafi has made Libya into the most highly rated African country with many social programs that actually work. His track record at "taking care of Libyans" is unblemished. The highly publicized unemployed between ages 18-27 is about the same as in this country. The civilians wouldn't be getting killed if the CIA had not fired up some convenient rebels. Housing, healthcare and education are far ahead of the USA, so who are we to give lectures. If Libya did not have OIL, we would not be there. OIL goes into the Distribution Network andit is always the same players. Multinationals loyal to the strong currency and we are helping them. Moronic. Leave Libyans to Qaddafi because he demonstrated that he can create progress for his own people. Stop believing Mass Media BS and start doing your homework.

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    Re: Stalemate in Libya Increasingly Viewed as Likely Outcome

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshabar View Post
    Maggie D, I'd like to like your post but somehow I'm not getting the link. Obama has a world of expertise at his disposal. Doesn't seem to want to use it.
    I agree with you. He has a world of expertise at his disposal. Either he doesn't want to use it or he is so intent on knowing which way the political winds blow that he's weighing decisions in his own self-interest. I have absolutely no confidence in him.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: Stalemate in Libya Increasingly Viewed as Likely Outcome

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshabar View Post
    Maggie D, I'd like to like your post but somehow I'm not getting the link. Obama has a world of expertise at his disposal. Doesn't seem to want to use it.
    Sometimes all you need to do is refresh the page.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Stalemate in Libya Increasingly Viewed as Likely Outcome

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I think it is ridiculous from a purely logical/realist/material interest point of view, but people around the world (including many Americans, and we as Americans often naturally find ourselves identifying with those who struggle for freedom) were clamoring for the West to do something, plus there were all the reports out of Libya about how the rebels would be crushed if a no-fly-zone was not implemented, the rebels themselves were begging for help, etc. He could have done nothing and gotten blasted for it. He did something and the situation still sucks, it was just tough. So in conclusion I don't think his performance and rhetoric are really up to par on this one, but at the same time I fail to see how it could have been done any other way.
    You're probably right, Ballin. If he'd had any choice at all, he'd have probably voted present.

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    Re: Stalemate in Libya Increasingly Viewed as Likely Outcome

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    Qaddafi has made Libya into the most highly rated African country with many social programs that actually work. His track record at "taking care of Libyans" is unblemished. The highly publicized unemployed between ages 18-27 is about the same as in this country. The civilians wouldn't be getting killed if the CIA had not fired up some convenient rebels. Housing, healthcare and education are far ahead of the USA, so who are we to give lectures. If Libya did not have OIL, we would not be there. OIL goes into the Distribution Network andit is always the same players. Multinationals loyal to the strong currency and we are helping them. Moronic. Leave Libyans to Qaddafi because he demonstrated that he can create progress for his own people. Stop believing Mass Media BS and start doing your homework.
    Yeah, it's amazing, Dave, this was by far NOT the worst Muslim country and the rebels would have been squashed like bugs if Gaddafi was the monster he's being made out to be. He was forging new relationships in the west. Any leader of a Muslim country who is repressing the ultra religious is probably doing his people a favor. Same with Mubarak. The only places these revolutions stand a chance is against leaders with ties to the west. The others just go ahead and squash the people post haste with no apologies to anyone.

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    Re: Stalemate in Libya Increasingly Viewed as Likely Outcome

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Sometimes all you need to do is refresh the page.
    Thanks, it worked but the other posts were showing the link like normal. Oh well.

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    Re: Stalemate in Libya Increasingly Viewed as Likely Outcome

    Stalemate in Libya Increasingly Viewed as Likely Outcome
    Some of us predicted this, before the first round was ever fired.

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    Re: Stalemate in Libya Increasingly Viewed as Likely Outcome

    First I can't see Gaddafi allowing this to be drawn out into another Iraq.

    Next Obama has already made it clear that he is great at hit and run after you really get the Rebels hopes up.

    My way this would have been over in a heart beat or lack thereof.

    Gaddafi would be dead and that would signal game over.

  10. #20
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    Re: Stalemate in Libya Increasingly Viewed as Likely Outcome

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    Qaddafi has made Libya into the most highly rated African country with many social programs that actually work. His track record at "taking care of Libyans" is unblemished. The highly publicized unemployed between ages 18-27 is about the same as in this country. The civilians wouldn't be getting killed if the CIA had not fired up some convenient rebels. Housing, healthcare and education are far ahead of the USA, so who are we to give lectures. If Libya did not have OIL, we would not be there. OIL goes into the Distribution Network andit is always the same players. Multinationals loyal to the strong currency and we are helping them. Moronic. Leave Libyans to Qaddafi because he demonstrated that he can create progress for his own people. Stop believing Mass Media BS and start doing your homework.
    Bad troll is bad.

    These aren't the droids you're looking for. Move along.
    The national security of the United States can never be left in the hands of liberals.

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