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Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

2K05GT said:
Grant said:
This is what I was thinking as I read the 80 pages of posts.

The responsibility should be laid upon the people who committed the acts. Most here were assuming that the Muslims who were rioting and killing over the burning of a book half a world away had no control over their reactions, and thus could not be held accountable for them: they were demonstrating their belief that it was the West’s responsibility to make sure the Islamic world behaves in a civilized manner.

I live in Washington DC and have many friends and neighbors that are Muslim; I asked them what they thought about the burning, they said that if they met Pastor Jones "they would cut his head off". I asked them about the actions taken by the people in Afghanistan and they applauded them... Now keep in mind that these are people that Work, Live and Pray in the USA. I told them that I would have an issue calling them Moderate Muslims because of their answers. They Said that the Education and culture of Islam is that you protect Islam with your life. I was a bit shocked, so I retreated to my den to study a little about the subject. I had to ponder my own belief system growing up as a catholic but find myself today a non religious person having studied Physics and math the past 30 years. I wondered who is God what does he mean to people? So I started to search the Bible, Quran and Torah to get my answers.

Well after many nights of pouring through the religious text I find myself no closer to God than I was a week ago. So I called a college who is what I would consider a Well Educated non practicing Muslim Professor and asked him for some insight on this event and how moderate and extremist Muslims find themselves in agreement on this subject. His first comment was “do you have 20 years?” I don’t but he proceeded to tell me that Muslims are very devoted to the Political structure of Islam not to the religious aspect. Without the political structure the religion would not last because of the vast cultures that Islam is practiced from China, Indonesia, Middle East, Africa and Persia. It is the fastest growing religion in the world that spans every group, nationality and language.

We make a natural mistake in our understanding of Islamic tradition, assuming that religion means the same for Muslims as it has meant for most other religious adherents ever since the industrial revolution, and for some societies, even before that; that is: a section of life reserved for certain matters, and separate from other sections of life. This is not the Islamic world view.

Islam is a “total way of life.” It has provided guidance in every sphere of life, from individual cleanliness, rules of trade, to the structure and politics of the society. Islam can never be separated from social, political, or economic life, since religion provides moral guidance for every action that a person takes. The primary act of faith is to strive to implement God's will in both private and public life. Muslims see that they, themselves, as well as the world around them, must be in total submission to God and his Will. Moreover, they know that this concept of His rule must be established on earth in order to create a just society. Like Jews and Christians before them, Muslims have been called into a covenant relationship with God, making them a community of believers who must serve as an example to other nations by creating a Islamic moral social order. Throughout history, being a Muslim has meant not only belonging to a religious community of fellow believers but also living under the Islamic Law. For Islamic Law is believed to be an extension of God’s absolute sovereignty and God’s word written or sung is as sacred Gods own being.
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Asking Muslims themselves is certainly the best way to have a handle on what's going on, 2KO5GT, and they shared their opinions with you just as they do on many of their web sites. They are not too shy on explaining the situation, but the West often has difficulty understanding it. In fact you'll often see non Muslims describing Islam as a "Race".

It seems that many people believe Islam, because they think of it as a religion, is just another form of Christianity, where you can opt in or out and you're pretty much left alone. You've described the religion as many others have, and these numbers would include all Muslims.
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Grant,
I am not an expert in religion, in fact I have very little knowledge since I have not practiced my own in quite some time, I do know that Islam is more of a political system than a religion. Some would also call Catholicism a political system, look at the Vatican, As city of its own, it’s own Leader, Laws and government.

Others, What’s a “SOCK” besides the garment that you put on your foot..
 
2K05GT said:
Grant,
I am not an expert in religion, in fact I have very little knowledge since I have not practiced my own in quite some time, I do know that Islam is more of a political system than a religion. Some would also call Catholicism a political system, look at the Vatican, As city of its own, it’s own Leader, Laws and government.

Others, What’s a “SOCK” besides the garment that you put on your foot..
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Nor am I an expert on religion, but I can see what Muslims are doing, read what they have to say, and can look at what happens in Muslim dominated countries.

It really shouldn't be such a mystery if we genuinely want to learn more about what's going on.
 
I'll tell you all...

If the Crusades had succeeded, we wouldn't have to deal with this Islamic cluster****, we see today
 
ric27 said:
I'll tell you all...

If the Crusades had succeeded, we wouldn't have to deal with this Islamic cluster****, we see today
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The goal of the crusaders was to take back Jerusalem from the non Christians, that and to find the Holy Grail.
 
Dittohead not! said:
The goal of the crusaders was to take back Jerusalem from the non Christians, that and to find the Holy Grail.
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Damn - I ordered *original recipe* and got the crispy crap

Ok, back on topic

What most people seem to forget, is that prior to the rise of Islam after 632AD, the Holy Land was predominantly Christian with some Jews. Egypt was Christian. Spain was Christian. The Balkans and Asia Minor was Christian. Muslims over-ran the Middle East and North Africa. They conquered most of Spain and were only stopped in Europe by Odo of Aquitaine at Toulouse in 721AD and finally by Charles Martel at Tours in 732AD. It was another 750 years before the Spanish and Portugese finally drove them out of the Iberian Peninsula. We celebrate 1492 as the year Columbus discovered the Americas. Spain also celebrates it as the year the Muslims were finally driven the hell out.

Consequently, for whatever reasons there were for the Crusades, it was not an invasion by Christians of traditional Muslim lands. It was a recovery of what had been Christian lands and a counter campaign to the centuries long expansion of Islam. The last assault on Vienna, Austria by the Turks was in 1683. They were finally driven out of Hungary in 1699.

Attempting to portray Muslims as peaceful, civilized people who were attacked by brutal, barbaric, European Christians. Its bull**** Muslims started it.
 
ric27 said:
Damn - I ordered *original recipe* and got the crispy crap

Ok, back on topic

What most people seem to forget, is that prior to the rise of Islam after 632AD, the Holy Land was predominantly Christian with some Jews. Egypt was Christian. Spain was Christian. The Balkans and Asia Minor was Christian. Muslims over-ran the Middle East and North Africa. They conquered most of Spain and were only stopped in Europe by Odo of Aquitaine at Toulouse in 721AD and finally by Charles Martel at Tours in 732AD. It was another 750 years before the Spanish and Portugese finally drove them out of the Iberian Peninsula. We celebrate 1492 as the year Columbus discovered the Americas. Spain also celebrates it as the year the Muslims were finally driven the hell out.

Consequently, for whatever reasons there were for the Crusades, it was not an invasion by Christians of traditional Muslim lands. It was a recovery of what had been Christian lands and a counter campaign to the centuries long expansion of Islam. The last assault on Vienna, Austria by the Turks was in 1683. They were finally driven out of Hungary in 1699.

Attempting to portray Muslims as peaceful, civilized people who were attacked by brutal, barbaric, European Christians. Its bull**** Muslims started it.
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The Crusades

In 1095 an assembly of churchmen called by Pope Urban II met at Clermont, France. Messengers from the Byzantine Emperor Alexius Comnenus had urged the pope to send help against the armies of Muslim Turks. On November 27 the pope addressed the assembly and asked the warriors of Europe to liberate the Holy Land from the Muslims. The response of the assembly was overwhelmingly favorable. Thus was launched the first and most successful of at least eight crusades against the Muslim caliphates of the Near East.

"God wills it!"
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The Battle of Tours you cite is probably one of the most important in human history, as it led to the expulsion of the Muslims from Europe, then to the Crusades, which in turn led to the European exploration (since the Muslims weren't too anxious to have Europeans crossing their lands) and finally to the European discovery and exploration of the New World.
 
Theres an excellent book by Thomas Madden *The Concise History of the Crusades*

I highly recommend it for reading to better educate oneself regarding the history of the middle east....
 
ric27 said:
Theres an excellent book by Thomas Madden *The Concise History of the Crusades*

I highly recommend it for reading to better educate oneself regarding the history of the middle east....
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Or, you could just read my link. It would be quicker. But, by all means, if you want to read a whole book about it, go ahead.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Or, you could just read my link. It would be quicker. But, by all means, if you want to read a whole book about it, go ahead.
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Yes, and it's so much easier reading just the headlines than the stories underneath them.
 
Dittohead not! said:
The goal of the crusaders was to take back Jerusalem from the non Christians, that and to find the Holy Grail.
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That kind of depends on which crusade you are talking about and whether you are referring to the publicly-stated aims or the real aims of the leaders. Two quite different things.
 
ric27 said:
Theres an excellent book by Thomas Madden *The Concise History of the Crusades*

I highly recommend it for reading to better educate oneself regarding the history of the middle east....
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The Crusades Through Arab Eyes by Amin Maalouf is one of the best accounts that you could read to accompany an old-style European viewpoint. For a third perspective, that of the Byzantine Empire (as much a victim of the crusades as the Jews and Moslems) I recommend Byzantium:The Decline and Fall by John Julius Norwich.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Is that where your ideas about wiping out the Muslim population come from?
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Perhaps you should start using quotes. Are you one of those who are willing to deny free speech to others but will happily lie in order to try and make a point?
 
Grant said:
Perhaps you should start using quotes. Are you one of those who are willing to deny free speech to others but will happily lie in order to try and make a point?
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No, not at all. You have every right to say we should go to war with Islam, and I have every right to say that you're wrong.

OK, edit: I went back to see who had said what, and it turns out you weren't the one who posted:

I think there are 3 basic outcomes outta this mess

A The annihilation of Islam and every Muslim from Mother Earth. Destroy or convert every Muslim man, woman and child, burn their mosques, Korans and every writing.

Aka Wipe them out

B We convert to Islam or die. They win. No more dar el harb, only the dar el Islam

C Accept that there will be a state of war to varying degrees between Islam and non-Islam for centuries to come.

I pick C
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but you do seem to be on the same side of the argument.

So, am I wrong, or do you agree with the above post?
 
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I think they're all a bunch of idiots. The Muslims and the Christians.
 
Dittohead not! said:
No, not at all. You have every right to say we should go to war with Islam, and I have every right to say that you're wrong.

OK, edit: I went back to see who had said what, and it turns out you weren't the one who posted:



but you do seem to be on the same side of the argument.

So, am I wrong, or do you agree with the above post?
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Can't take you seriously any longer.
 
No one here is saying what the people did in Afghanistan was right. The fact stands it was wrong in about a million ways. What people are saying is that Pastor Jones caused it. I don’t get how that is not clear. You propagate the values of free speech yet swim in hypocrisy when you endanger others by the words you shout.
 
bus said:
No one here is saying what the people did in Afghanistan was right. The fact stands it was wrong in about a million ways. What people are saying is that Pastor Jones caused it. I don’t get how that is not clear. You propagate the values of free speech yet swim in hypocrisy when you endanger others by the words you shout.
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Okay, Bus, I'll mark you down as anti Free Speech then.

Next?
 
Grant said:
So you can use quotes then!

Why not use them before making your goofy accusations?
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Does that mean you disagree with the quote?

I thought you were arguing on the premise that Islam was a force for evil in the world. If that's wrong, then I was wrong. I got you mixed up with another member.

But you never did answer my question, so I'm not sure at this point just what your argument is.
 
Grant it seems as if you still are unable to gap the breach between free speech and limitations of speech. Thats okay though.
 
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bus said:
Grant it seems as if you still are unable to gap the breach between free speech and limitations of speech. Thats okay though.
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Perhaps you can describe those limitations as it relates criticism of religion.
 
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