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Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

No, it is in Africa as well.


They hate Jews.

So, it's a radical fringe group in the ME and in Africa that hates Christians and Jews. It's still not a war between Islam and Christianity.
 
Whose answer was usually 'no'? Not the blacks, I'm guessing.

Sure, people rationalized why Black people should not have their freedom. And of course many Blacks in the early years were absolutely dependent as well and didn't know what to do with their new found freedom either. But no person who has enjoyed freedom would ever want it taken away, and it has to be taken away by stealth.
Personal and collective, coomunal and national destinies.

You can probably scratch 'personal' from that list but it is not for others to decide that people do not want their freedoms. If people genuinely want to collective destinies they are free to do that in the democracies, but they should be allowed that option and not have it forced upon them
That's not the argument, it's just that many, many people have never heard the debate, never mind been allowed to participate in it.

Many of those who have been ruled by despots and have remained uneducated throughout their lives probably wouldn't even understand the argument. But it seems too me that everyone should have the freedom to determine their own destiny, and that's where a collective effort is worthwhile. We can assist each other, in a local and international sense, to help others to take advantage of their own gifts and talents. Right now much of the world lives in poverty and squalor and many of these people could have been great achievers and made their mark on the world. But we'll never know what they might have been, and nor will they.
Well, here at DP he has certainly received a large degree of support and fairly mild criticism in comparison with the perpetrators of the murders. And that's how it should be.

I haven't done a count but it seems he has been attacked from many quarters. I'm guessing that when things cool down a little the blame will be laid more where it should be.

Well, why don't you leave us to worry about that?

Firstly because it doesn't seem many are genuinely concerned about it (the loss of free speech is one example) and secondly because it has international consequences. That's the reason many others are always interested in the United States and its foreign and domestic policies. It all matters.
 
So, it's a radical fringe group in the ME and in Africa that hates Christians and Jews. It's still not a war between Islam and Christianity.

It's certainly not a "fringe group" in the Middle East.

And how many does it take to drive a people out of their homes and places of worship? A "fringe group", and you offer no idea of the numbers, could quite easily accomplish that. They are doing it now in fact, and it has no signs of slowing down.
 
Perhaps because you don't understand that I'm saying that Reverend Nutter isn't all that different from the Muslim radicals. Both are religious nutters.

No, they are not even comparable, being that one is murdering completely random people.
 
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It's certainly not a "fringe group" in the Middle East.

And how many does it take to drive a people out of their homes and places of worship? A "fringe group", and you offer no idea of the numbers, could quite easily accomplish that. They are doing it now in fact, and it has no signs of slowing down.

Mainstream Islam is not driving anyone out of their homes and places of worship. It's the lunatic fringe that is doing that. There just isn't much market for news about people going about their own business and peacefully living their lives.
 
Not so large when you know that burning the book will result in murders.

I'm sure Reverend Nutter thinks he is on the side of all that is right and holy, and the Muslim extremists are on the side of the devil, but there really is little difference between them.

No, jones is a complete asshole. But he still didn't murder random people. Also, you act as if the Afghanis who committed these murders were just hapless pawns in his nefarious scheme, who had no other option open to to them

So, again, your general view of this event continues to confuse me
 
That seems a perfectly reasonable question. What should happen to the Rev. Jones as a consequence of taking the action which indirectly led to the deaths of the UN workers, consciously and inadvisedly? I passionately believe in the right of free expression, but I also passionately believe that those who have the privilege of enjoying such rights have a duty to use it responsibly. Clearly he did the opposite of this. I don't know whether the US has laws about incitement to violent disorder or not. I'm not sure either whether Rev Jones' actions could be construed as having directly incited that violence, but I certainly think it would be worth looking at.

Ultimately, I suspect he did nothing illegal, merely immoral.

So basically you only "passionately believe in the right of free expression" when you approve of the messages content
 
No, jones is a complete asshole. But he still didn't murder random people. Also, you act as if the Afghanis who committed these murders were just hapless pawns in his nefarious scheme, who had no other option open to to them

So, again, your general view of this event continues to confuse me

I didn't say that reverend Asshole committed the murders. He did incite the people who did,. That is the view of this event that continues to escape you.

If I go and poke a stick at a hornet's nest, the results are predictable. The hornets did the damage, but I'm the one who stirred them up.

But, even as a dumb teenager, I didn't poke a stick at that hornet's nest a second time. Reverend Nutter seems to think he's made some worthwhile point. What I fail to see is just what that point is.
 
Mainstream Islam is not driving anyone out of their homes and places of worship. It's the lunatic fringe that is doing that. There just isn't much market for news about people going about their own business and peacefully living their lives.

How do you know what is "mainstream Islam" and what is a "lunatic fringe"? Do you have any idea whatsoever or are you just guessing?

Is "mainstream Islam" condemning Christians being driven form their Churches and homes? Are they condemning the way Jews are defiled in the Middle East media? What has "mainstream Islam" got to say about the killings of the NATO workers, the 42 innocents recently killed in Pakistan, and so on?

Yes, most Muslims do live in peace and want to continue that way and are not a problem. But it does not take a majority to intimidate people, as we have seen. A few terrorist bombs and freedom of speech is canceled and any negative expressions towards Islam is quickly censored or condemned. This happens repeatedly.

We can say that not all Germans were Nazis and only wanted to live in peace, as did the Italians who were victims of Fascism, or the Russian people and Cuban people, among many others, who were forced to live under Communism..

All it takes is enough determined people to radically change the world, and the "people going about their own business and peacefully living their lives" bromide has nothing to do with it.
 
Mainstream Islam is not driving anyone out of their homes and places of worship. It's the lunatic fringe that is doing that. There just isn't much market for news about people going about their own business and peacefully living their lives.


Hey DN what's happenin'? To address this post and for the record, I don't think that this rev. or whatever he is with his 14 followers, and ties to Westboro Baptist, shouldn't have done this. Not because we should fear reprisals but because we are more civilized than our muslim enemy.

While it may be true that the radicals in Islam are driving that religion at the moment, you can not deny the deafening silence of the so called majority, that say that they do not condone these extremists, but do, or say very little publicly to denounce them either. Remember there is such a thing as support through silence as well.


j-mac
 
I didn't say that reverend Asshole committed the murders. He did incite the people who did,. That is the view of this event that continues to escape you.

If I go and poke a stick at a hornet's nest, the results are predictable. The hornets did the damage, but I'm the one who stirred them up.

But, even as a dumb teenager, I didn't poke a stick at that hornet's nest a second time. Reverend Nutter seems to think he's made some worthwhile point. What I fail to see is just what that point is.

So Muslims have the intelligence and basic instincts of hornets.

I doubt they appreciate defenders like you.
 
I didn't say that reverend Asshole committed the murders. He did incite the people who did,. That is the view of this event that continues to escape you.

If I go and poke a stick at a hornet's nest, the results are predictable. The hornets did the damage, but I'm the one who stirred them up.

But, even as a dumb teenager, I didn't poke a stick at that hornet's nest a second time. Reverend Nutter seems to think he's made some worthwhile point. What I fail to see is just what that point is.

The people who did this were already incited, they didn't need the preacher. They weren't going about their day thinking "what a great day to be alive, I think I'll go hug a Jew" and then along came the preacher and burns the Koran and they're then like "OMG! That asshole! Well I wasn't going to do this, but now I'm going to go kill a bunch of random jerks!" No, they sat and thought about it, they decided targets and went with it. This wasn't some pissing and moaning at some jerk who burns the flag; this is premeditated murder and they merely used what the preacher did as an excuse. It's not like they weren't killing people before this preacher, and if you don't burn anymore books it's not like they're going to stop this.

No the responsibility falls solely on the adults who made a conscientious decision to go after other people and kill them, the preacher bears no responsibility what so ever for the actions of people half a world away. And that is the view of this event that continues to escape you.
 
I didn't say that reverend Asshole committed the murders. He did incite the people who did,.

Yes, if you think incitement includes strongly disagreeing with someone, then you are correct. I mean, clearly if I go out and kill random people, because I find your statements here offensive, it's your fault.

That is the view of this event that continues to escape you.

it escapes me because it's moronic and wrong

If I go and poke a stick at a hornet's nest, the results are predictable.

right, you think afghanis are incapable of reason, thought, or better judgment than to kill random people over a book. I'm telling you they could have chosen not to.



The hornets did the damage, but I'm the one who stirred them up.

No, we are not talking about hornets, we are talking about people capable of rational and independent thought that murdered people in response to someone exercising their right to free speech. And how your ire is directed at the guy who harmed no one


But, even as a dumb teenager, I didn't poke a stick at that hornet's nest a second time. Reverend Nutter seems to think he's made some worthwhile point. What I fail to see is just what that point is.

The right to free speech isn't dependent on you, or anyone else, getting it
 
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OK, I did stir up a hornet's nest, didn't I?

Firstly, the rioters who are causing all the trouble are being manipulated by leaders for their own ends. Not that what they are doing can be excused, mind you, but they are uneducated people who are being told that the "great Satan" is to blame for their troubles and that they can get a reward in Heaven by killing Satan's minions, the infidel. We can see that the same people that are manipulating them are to blame for their troubles, but they can not. They only know what they have been told. Secondly, Reverend Jones did know what the results of his actions would be, and went ahead and staged his little publicity stunt anyway.

The rioters may have more intelligence than hornets, but their reaction, given the words of the people leading them, was totally predictable.

Secondly, the rioters don't represent Islam any more than Jones represents Christians.

Thirdly, there exists a fringe group of Christians who are easily manipulated by these events as well. They believe that a war between Islam and Christianity is a forerunner to the Second Coming, and so welcome such a war. Luckily, they don't go around chopping off heads like their Islamic counterparts do, but they are just as manipulated and misled by their leaders as the rioters are.

A few terrorists out raising havoc is not nearly as scary as the religious nutters who are expecting and hoping for Armageddon and either the Second Coming or the Twelfth Imam. An all out war that spreads from the fringe to the mainstream would be the end of modern civilization, and that's no exaggeration.

The numbers of both Christians and Muslims is in the billions. The fringe (yes, that is what it is) number in the thousands at best.
 
I didn't say that reverend Asshole committed the murders. He did incite the people who did,. That is the view of this event that continues to escape you.

If I go and poke a stick at a hornet's nest, the results are predictable. The hornets did the damage, but I'm the one who stirred them up.

But, even as a dumb teenager, I didn't poke a stick at that hornet's nest a second time. Reverend Nutter seems to think he's made some worthwhile point. What I fail to see is just what that point is.

The Muslim clerics in Afghanistan incited this violence. Not the Reverend Jones.
 
Where do you get these numbers from?

j-mac

Basically from my own general knowledge. Let's see if I was right:
Answers.com estimates between 2 and 3 billion for Christians:

So, whilst it is difficult to give a definite answer to the actual number of Christians in the world (estimates range from 2 - 3 billion), Christianity remains the most dominant of the world, and is still growing at an astonishing rate.
The same source gives the number of Muslims at over a billion and a half:

As of October 2009, there are about 1.57 billion Muslims of all ages living in the world today (in more than 200 countries of the world). This represents 23% of an estimated 2009 world population of 6.8 billion people. (per study done by Pew forum). Refer to related link below.

Read more: Answers.com - How many Muslims are there in the world

It looks like I may have underestimated the number of Jihadis, however:

But when it comes to actual jihadists, to those who have or will commit an act of terrorism in Allah's name, my research suggests that they represent no more than one in one hundred of the 180 million young fundamentalist Muslim men prepared mentally, morally, and spiritually to be terrorists. That means that there are 1.8 million actual Islamic jihadists on the planet today - a number which could jump one hundred fold almost instantaneously should the opportunity arise.

That represents about 1/10 of 1% who are actual Jihadis, but then, if that number could really jump a hundredfold, we could have a much larger problem on our hands.

Which is one reason why stupid acts like burning a Koran with the sure knowledge that such an act would create more terrorists should be discouraged.
 
OK, I did stir up a hornet's nest, didn't I?

Firstly, the rioters who are causing all the trouble are being manipulated by leaders for their own ends. Not that what they are doing can be excused, mind you, but they are uneducated people who are being told that the "great Satan" is to blame for their troubles and that they can get a reward in Heaven by killing Satan's minions, the infidel. We can see that the same people that are manipulating them are to blame for their troubles, but they can not. They only know what they have been told. Secondly, Reverend Jones did know what the results of his actions would be, and went ahead and staged his little publicity stunt anyway.

firstly you're stripping people of their humanity to lay blame at someone who exercised the right of free speech

secondly, I find it highly dubious that Jones knew people would storm a UN compound and murder the inhabitants

thirdly, the possibility of someone acting extremely to someone's exercising their rights could be used to excuse all manner of stupid ****, from the attack civil rights activists faced, to the murder of muslims after 9/11


The rioters may have more intelligence than hornets, but their reaction, given the words of the people leading them, was totally predictable.

No it wasn't considering many Muslims didn't act in such a manner, and that Qurans have been burned previously, without such a result

Secondly, the rioters don't represent Islam any more than Jones represents Christians.

no one said they did. So I am unsure what the point of the above remark is

Thirdly, there exists a fringe group of Christians who are easily manipulated by these events as well. They believe that a war between Islam and Christianity is a forerunner to the Second Coming, and so welcome such a war. Luckily, they don't go around chopping off heads like their Islamic counterparts do, but they are just as manipulated and misled by their leaders as the rioters are.

this has nothing to do with what is being discussed,. But it does raise a good point: are people performing abortions guilty of the violence perpetrated against them, since some find abortion highly offensive and something they are willing to kill over?

No, the people who committed the violence would be guilty, not the people complying with the laws and exercising their rights

A few terrorists out raising havoc is not nearly as scary as the religious nutters who are expecting and hoping for Armageddon and either the Second Coming or the Twelfth Imam. An all out war that spreads from the fringe to the mainstream would be the end of modern civilization, and that's no exaggeration.

The numbers of both Christians and Muslims is in the billions. The fringe (yes, that is what it is) number in the thousands at best.

Again, irrelevant to what is being discussed
 
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This is not a war between Christianity and Islam. It is not "all Islam" that is the problem. It is religious extremists that are the problem.

Thank God, Allah, Jehovah, and Zeus, there is no war between two of the world's major religions. Such a war would end civilization as we know it.

I don't think it is much of a stretch at all to say that 90% of all significant terrorist incidents in the last 50 years have been perpetrated by Muslim terrorists in the name of Islam. Islam is "the problem" - they made it so. They are the ones claiming to act in its name


Islam has fought the west since its inception. The only reason they were quiet for awhile was because they were so overmatched militarily that they couldn't do much. Modern explosives, etc. have given them a means that they did not previously possess.

In essence, our mere existence is reason for the existence of "radical" Islam such as the Taliban. It is politically correct to say they have hijacked Islam and do not represent "true" Islam. Even if that is true, there is sufficient support for their view in the Koran, etc., that we may kill off every member of the Taliban and Al Qaeda, and there will be a new group in the next generation that will espouse a similar belief and continue the war against us simply because we exist.
 
firstly you're stripping people of their humanity to lay blame at someone who exercised the right of free speech

No, they share the blame. Their manipulators have even more.

secondly, I find it highly dubious that Jones knew people would storm a UN compound and murder the inhabitants

Jones own words:

"We wanted to raise awareness of this dangerous religion and dangerous element," Jones said. "I think [today's attack] proves that there is a radical element of Islam

We already knew that about the radical element of Islam. Just how do you think he intended to prove it? If he didn't expect violence, then his little demonstration would have failed.



thirdly, the possibility of someone acting extremely to someone's exercising their rights could be used to excuse all manner of stupid ****, from the attack civil rights activists faced, to the murder of muslims after 9/11

Who is excusing the Jihadis?




this has nothing to do with what is being discussed,. But it does raise a good point: are people performing abortions guilty of the violence perpetrated against them, since some find abortion highly offensive and something they are willing to kill over?

Speaking of something that has nothing to do with what is being discussed.

Bill O'Reilly said it best:

Bill O'Reilly on Florida Pastor Terry Jones and his Koran burning: He has 'blood on his hands'

Bill O'Reilly ripped into the Koran-burning Florida pastor who sparked deadly riots in Afghanistan, calling him an "insane Christian" who has "blood on his hands."

The conservative Fox News host said Monday night that Terry Jones "had to know fanatical Muslims would go crazy" when he oversaw the burning of the Islamic holy book on March 20.
 
No, they share the blame. Their manipulators have even more.

again, unless you feel they had no other response to burning a Quran, they chose to murder people of their own volition, and many other muslims did not




from the article: ""We wanted to raise awareness of this dangerous religion and dangerous element," Jones said. "I think [today's attack] proves that there is a radical element of Islam."

that doesn't establish what you claim. If I'm protesting the klan because I think they are a violent organization that doesn't amount to me having a plan for the klan to murder random people as a response to that protest

We already knew that about the radical element of Islam. Just how do you think he intended to prove it? If he didn't expect violence, then his little demonstration would have failed.

If you're claiming that he had a certain intent, then it's incumbent on you to offer evidence of such. Also, simply getting his message out, by causing media controversy would be considered success regardless if he was just a media whore, or actually had real concerns about the topic. With neither requires violence.

So again, we are stuck with your pointless outrage directed at people who committed no crime, while ignoring people who murder random people





Who is excusing the Jihadis?

you are. You're excusing their behavior by holding someone else to blame for it







Speaking of something that has nothing to do with what is being discussed.

Bill O'Reilly said it best:

1) why would I care what O'reilly's opinion on the matter was?

2) you're making an appeal to authority, and his argument has the same issues as your own

3) you ignored my point about abortions and the violence associated with them. Are people performing abortions to blame for violence leveled against them, and others, since people have responded with violence in the past?
 
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that doesn't establish what you claim. If I'm protesting the klan because I think they are a violent organization that doesn't amount to me having a plan for the klan to murder random people as a response to that protest

On that note, the KKK started as pretty much a terrorist organization aimed at the oppression of minorities, and often times when black folk tried to vote, they would hunt them down and string them up. I guess those folk trying to vote share part of the blame in their own deaths because they knew the KKK would respond violently to their attempts at voting.
 
On that note, the KKK started as pretty much a terrorist organization aimed at the oppression of minorities, and often times when black folk tried to vote, they would hunt them down and string them up. I guess those folk trying to vote share part of the blame in their own deaths because they knew the KKK would respond violently to their attempts at voting.

Good job at letting historical facts totally **** up the argument. You were on a roll...up 'til this post.
 
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