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Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

theplaydrive said:
Once again, I am arguing for common sense.
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It's not common sense to try to punish someone who is practicing a right because of the reactions of some nutjobs half the world away
 
Fiddytree said:
What an idiotic statement. Shoving aside the notion that one would ever want to use the spawn of so many trite sequels for a damned metaphor, Jigsaw was in immediate proximity to alter the very survival of a human being and intentionally did so. The Paster was in no immediate proximity, had no life-altering power toward any individual, and was no evil menace to society.
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Can you think of another situation that comes close to illustrating where the act of one person forced the actions of another yet the first person isn't held liable for manipulating the situation? That's the comparison I was attempting to draw. And yes, I know it seems ludicris on the surface of it, but that's pretty much what's happened here. One man did something that was so stupid, so wreckless that he forced the actions of another individual (or in this case a group of individuals) to commit an act that was far more hanous in retaliation of the first.

Now, you and I both see the absordity of the retalitory actions Islamists took, but in their minds an American dececrated their holy book. And such an act to them cannot go unpunished. So, what does radical Islam do? Strike out against the only guilty party it could find - U.N. workers because they were the closest thing to Americans they could find. It's sad...very sad. No one is excusing what they did. But at the same time, I think most people can agree that had Pastor Jones (or any other American for that matter, but especially him since his name and face had clearly be plastered all over the news world-wide) not burned the Qu'ron, I don't think we'd be here talking about this matter today. Do you?
 
Objective Voice said:
Do you?
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No clue, those jerks are insane. It's quite possible they would have done it regardless, but they just used this pastor as an excuse. Had the pastor not done this, it's quite possible they would have still done the same thing but found a different excuse for having done so
 
Objective Voice said:
Can you think of another situation that comes close to illustrating where the act of one person forced the actions of another yet the first person isn't held liable for manipulating the situation? That's the comparison I was attempting to draw. And yes, I know it seems ludicris on the surface of it, but that's pretty much what's happened here. One man did something that was so stupid, so wreckless that he forced the actions of another individual (or in this case a group of individuals) to commit an act that was far more hanous in retaliation of the first.

Now, you and I both see the absordity of the retalitory actions Islamists took, but in their minds an American dececrated their holy book. And such an act to them cannot go unpunished. So, what does radical Islam do? Strike out against the only guilty party it could find - U.N. workers because they were the closest thing to Americans they could find. It's sad...very sad. No one is excusing what they did. But at the same time, I think most people can agree that had Pastor Jones (or any other American for that matter, but especially him since his name and face had clearly be plastered all over the news world-wide) not burned the Qu'ron, I don't think we'd be here talking about this matter today. Do you?
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I question the entire nature of "force" here. There was no force involved. Mr. Jones' proximity in almost all ways but publicity of his cheap stunt was immensely far away. There was no danger coming from his actions, no grand ultimatum, and no reason to attack anyone. To me, this is dangerously close to excusing the actions of these men.
 
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theplaydrive said:
Once again, a situation that has many different circumstances than the one we're talking about. The psychological factors of a woman in an abusive relationship do not exist in a man who burns Korans and provokes murderers.
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No, it's not. It's the same argument in fact. You know the dude is unhinged. You know that being around him will provoke his actions of aggression against you. Yet you choose to go back into the same circumstance and force this unhinged person to act the way everyone knew he would. The only reason you want to call this different is because you don't want to place any blame on the woman who choose to remain in the environment where as here you want to blame the preacher. But this is the logical outcome of your argument, that's the end all of it. It's why your argument is at base very poor
 
Objective Voice said:
Can you think of another situation that comes close to illustrating where the act of one person forced the actions of another yet the first person isn't held liable for manipulating the situation? That's the comparison I was attempting to draw. And yes, I know it seems ludicris on the surface of it, but that's pretty much what's happened here. One man did something that was so stupid, so wreckless that he forced the actions of another individual (or in this case a group of individuals) to commit an act that was far more hanous in retaliation of the first.

Now, you and I both see the absordity of the retalitory actions Islamists took, but in their minds an American dececrated their holy book. And such an act to them cannot go unpunished. So, what does radical Islam do? Strike out against the only guilty party it could find - U.N. workers because they were the closest thing to Americans they could find. It's sad...very sad. No one is excusing what they did. But at the same time, I think most people can agree that had Pastor Jones (or any other American for that matter, but especially him since his name and face had clearly be plastered all over the news world-wide) not burned the Qu'ron, I don't think we'd be here talking about this matter today. Do you?
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How many wannabees like Pastor Jones are going to pop up after this? The ones looking for notoriety?
 
ManofthPeephole said:
then you're special pleading: you want your logic to only apply in select circumstances, and one'
s where you don't agree with the content of the message
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Arguments in certain situations do not work in others. For example, one might argue that Policy A in good for Town X. Then, in order to challenge that argument, someone like you would say, "But Policy A doesn't make sense for Town Z, therefore Policy A doesn't work at all."

That is a logical fallacy. I am applying my argument to this situation (or Town X). The MLK situation is different from this situation (just as Town Z is different from Town X).

right, like those muslims who provoked people after 9/11, by openly practicing their religion
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Once again, your mixing up actual provocation with perceived provocation. I'm talking about the former.
 
Ikari said:
It's not common sense to try to punish someone who is practicing a right because of the reactions of some nutjobs half the world away
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Again, I'm not trying to punish him. I have argued that his right to free speech should be protected. I think that he and other should admit he has a part in the cause of the violence.
 
Ikari said:
No, it's not. It's the same argument in fact. You know the dude is unhinged. You know that being around him will provoke his actions of aggression against you. Yet you choose to go back into the same circumstance and force this unhinged person to act the way everyone knew he would. The only reason you want to call this different is because you don't want to place any blame on the woman who choose to remain in the environment where as here you want to blame the preacher. But this is the logical outcome of your argument, that's the end all of it. It's why your argument is at base very poor
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It is differently, actually - in the literal sense of the word different. The psychological and environmental factors present in/with the woman are not present in the pastor.
 
Grant said:
Are you saying he underestimated the ignorance of (some) Muslims?

That seems to be the case.
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I'm saying Pastor Jones didn't care that some within the Muslim world are more protective and passionate about their religion and their holy book than he perhaps is concerning his holy book, the Bible. The only thing Pastor Jones cared about was proving that some Muslims will kill indiscriminately to defend the honor and integrity of Islam. So, in that sense, yes, he underestimated their committment to defending what they consider to be honorable and sacred. They didn't quite strike the blow they were hoping for - killing Americans - but taking the lives of 11 innocent U.N. workers to them is the next best thing. Both were wrong - the Islamists clearly moreso than Pastor Jones. Personally, I condemn the actions of both.
 
If I successfully insight a person that I and others know is easy to influence, to kill someone for some benefit to my cause, I have broken the law in the US. So, apparently my freedom of speech will be abused.
If I successfully insight a self-selected group people in Afghanistan that have stated that:
1) they will kill,
3) given directions on how to influence them to kill and
3) demonstrated that they are easy to influence to kill,
to kill I have broken no law in the US.

Laws are an attempt to describe a process for a culture to operate with. They concern themselves with such things as freedoms. But, they can’t be perfect. So, how many angels are dancing on all the pins in this thread?
 
theplaydrive said:
Again, I'm not trying to punish him. I have argued that his right to free speech should be protected. I think that he and other should admit he has a part in the cause of the violence.
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pl

Exactly.

Anyone who doesn't respect Islam or anything Muslims consider Holy can expect Muslims to murder innocent people. We should all remain silent all things Islam.

Well put, Theplaydrive.
 
Objective Voice said:
I'm saying Pastor Jones didn't care that some within the Muslim world are more protective and passionate about their religion and their holy book than he perhaps is concerning his holy book, the Bible. The only thing Pastor Jones cared about was proving that some Muslims will kill indiscriminately to defend the honor and integrity of Islam. So, in that sense, yes, he underestimated their committment to defending what they consider to be honorable and sacred. They didn't quite strike the blow they were hoping for - killing Americans - but taking the lives of 11 innocent U.N. workers to them is the next best thing. Both were wrong - the Islamists clearly moreso than Pastor Jones. Personally, I condemn the actions of both.
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Yes, no one anywhere should provoke Muslims or they will murder innocent people.

Lesson learned.
 
theplaydrive said:
Arguments in certain situations do not work in others. For example, one might argue that Policy A in good for Town X. Then, in order to challenge that argument, someone like you would say, "But Policy A doesn't make sense for Town Z, therefore Policy A doesn't work at all."

That is a logical fallacy. I am applying my argument to this situation (or Town X). The MLK situation is different from this situation (just as Town Z is different from Town X).


Once again, your mixing up actual provocation with perceived provocation. I'm talking about the former.
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read up on special pleading. That's what you are doing here
 
Grant said:
pl

Exactly.

Anyone who doesn't respect Islam or anything Muslims consider Holy can expect Muslims to murder innocent people. We should all remain silent all things Islam.

Well put, Theplaydrive.
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No, no, that would be silly Grant. Every academic institution, including my alma mater, would be shut down for stuff like that. You need to take that socialist nonsense out of here.

I would say though, that provoking murderers is unwise.
 
Fiddytree said:
I question the entire nature of "force" here. There was no force involved. Mr. Jones' proximity in almost all ways but publicity of his cheap stunt was immensely far away. There was no danger coming from his actions, no grand ultimatum, and no reason to attack anyone. To me, this is dangerously close to excusing the actions of these men.
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Again, I am NOT defending the radicals, but if people can't see how irresponsible Pastor Jones' actions were, well...I can't help you.

As a veteran and former defender of hostile aggression against my nation and my fellow countrymen, I can only tell you that if I were fighting abroad to defend my country and I learned of one man or one group back home whose actions placed myself and my fellow comrades in arms further in harms way, I'd be pissed!!!

ric27 said:
How many wannabees like Pastor Jones are going to pop up after this? The ones looking for notoriety?
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You're asking a question to which I have no answer. But you can be sure that Pastor Jones just gave radical Islam exactly what they've been waiting for, that "gotcha moment", the ammunition they've been waiting for to kill in defense of their religion by virtue of saying, "See, America isn't such a tolerate nation of religious beliefs after all as they claim they are. They hate Muslims. Look what they did to our holy book?"
 
ManofthPeephole said:
read up on special pleading. That's what you are doing here
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Read up on common sense. That's what you're lacking here.

If you can't understand what I just said, you have a problem. If Policy X works for Town A, but not Town B that doesn't discredit Policy X. It means that Town A and Town B are different.
 
I guess that I have to state my position: Laws and freedoms are not the point here. The inner-directed pastor is evil. The killers are the other-directed soldiers of evil. There are many examples in human history of this. And we clearly don’t know how to stop it, and religion doesn’t seem to help.
 
Objective Voice said:
Then you misinterpret what people are saying about this incident. I don't think anyone is saying the Islamists are innocent here. They are NOT! But Pastor Jones did a very irresponsible thing after being warned what such an act would mean to those not only of the Muslim world, but also to those Americans and coalition forces in those Muslim countries who take the santity of their holy book far more serious than many Christians do today. Of course, Christianity has had its share of crackpots, too, i.e., the Crusades, the Salem Witch Hunts. Still, in this case, I blame Pastor Jones equally as much because he knew something like this would happen. He was forewarned by local authorities, Pentagon officials, the FBI/CIA and even the White House.

I seriously doubt what he did could amount to something as serious as treason, but his actions certainly were wreckless and irresponsible. That's why people are so hard on him about this matter.
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See, even you are using the butt monkey to keep from putting the blame where it belongs.
 
Grant said:
Yes, no one anywhere should provoke Muslims or they will murder innocent people.

Lesson learned.
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I didn't say that, now did I?

Clearly, you and anyone else can "challenge" Islam, you just have to be smart about it.

I've discussed the Qu'ron with American Muslims often. In some cases, we've agreed on some issues. In others, we've disagreed. But in no case has either side taken to doing the other harm for differing in our religious views. However, we both know there are some people you just can't reason with. Pastor Jones knew this when he burned the Qu'ron. He knew what was likely to happen, but he did it anyway. That's being irresponsible. He could have easily used his 15-minutes of fame to quote versus of the Qu'ron that point to versus therein that "authorizing" death, murder and deplorably acts and had far more success at pointing out such hypocrisies than he has by burning the Qu'ron. But his motives were obvious: He wanted Muslims to commit murder to prove his point about the religion (or more accurately, the radicals within the Muslim faith). Only he forgot one thing: Not every Muslim believes as Islamists do.
 
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Barbbtx said:
See, even you are using the butt monkey to keep from putting the blame where it belongs.
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Then clearly you didn't read further along in the thread where I posted this:

Both were wrong - the Islamists clearly moreso than Pastor Jones. Personally, I condemn the actions of both.
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I don't know why or how MLK got drug into this. If I walk up to you and your kids at the store and start calling your daughter a little ***** or a ******. You will obviously just smile and say "well honey he has the right to call you whatever he wants" Ofcourse you will not react because you are satisfied that the right to do it trumps all else. I sort of doubt that.
ManofthPeephole said:
Both are forms of speech that hurt no one, and shouldn't be held liable by the irrational response to it. Otherwise, you're endorsing silencing speech that is in anyway controversial, and may rile people
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