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Thread: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I see you are either unable or unwilling to define that difference.
    Andy, let's not be silly. If you really don't know the difference between a government and an individual, try invading France on your own.
    Well, you beating your son for staying out all night and a policeman beating him for doing so shows a lot of similarity.
    Perhaps, but you are talking of an illegal act and I'm not. Nor does the subject of this thread concern an illegal act.

    Did you ask them? I think that's precisely what they'd like to see happen.
    Ask them? I don't ven know them, nor am I interested in talking with them.
    Firstly, it was not just one individual, witness the tide of support he received, the tide of support for other similar activities and the tide of support for hounding law-abiding Moslem who wish to build their communities a mosque
    Hounding? How so?

    Secondly, I have no doubt that, but for the efforts of generations of liberal Americans upholding and cherishing those very constitutional rights, the likes of the Rev. Jones would crush any dissenters to his extremist religious orthodoxy.
    Perhaps, but who's to say? You seem to spend too much time speculating.

    In the meantime he's free to do what he wants with his private property and say what he thinks, as unpopular as that might be.. If you don't approve of freedom of speech then it would seem that fascism is still alive and well in Spain.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Andy, let's not be silly. If you really don't know the difference between a government and an individual, try invading France on your own.
    Now, who's being silly? You know that we are discussing philosophical and ethical distinctions. If you can't answer the question, just say so.
    Hounding? How so?
    Stuff like this...


    You seem to spend too much time speculating.
    Mr Pot, may I introduce you to Mrs Kettle?

    In the meantime he's free to do what he wants with his private property and say what he thinks, as unpopular as that might be.. If you don't approve of freedom of speech then it would seem that fascism is still alive and well in Spain.
    Right on cue! How typical of you to use the old, "if you disagree with what some loon says, you want to stop him saying it" trope.

    FYI, in just this thread:
    Me post 190 - I am not advocating that it should be made illegal, but that the reaction to it of the rest of society should be one of deep disapproval
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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Now, who's being silly? You know that we are discussing philosophical and ethical distinctions. If you can't answer the question, just say so.
    We are discussing a Florida Pastor who burned a Koran and did nothing illegal or unethical in doing so.

    Stuff like this...

    This is not related to the subject of the thread but if you are trying to compare these people to what the Muslims did to the UN workers, or indeed any Muslims riots, then you are well off the mark.
    Right on cue! How typical of you to use the old, "if you disagree with what some loon says, you want to stop him saying it" trope.
    So you are defending his right to say whatever he thinks? Good for you!

    Freedom of expression is one of the most basic building blocks of western civilization. If you want to deny people that right, as they have done in Europe, then it is a major setback for people everywhere, though I doubt your pleas will have much effect on Americans. Their right to freedom of expression is too ingrained in their culture to follow the steps taken in Europe.

    Me post 190 - I am not advocating that it should be made illegal, but that the reaction to it of the rest of society should be one of deep disapproval
    And you're upset that the 'rest of society' is not voicing their 'deep disapproval', but are instead defending his right to speak out on a controversial subject? That lock step thinking so commonplace in Europe has not yet arrived in the United States, and I'm hoping it never does.
    Last edited by Grant; 04-09-11 at 12:18 PM.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Some would prefer the Americans become like the Dutch, it seems.

    Dutch Courage - By Mark Steyn - The Corner - National Review Online

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    It could be that there are a lot more people calling themselves Christians than there are actually trying to live the philosophy that Christ preached.
    I'm of the opinion that most Christians have Christianity wrong.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Let's not forget he was also a pedophile, a warmonger and wanted to kill those who wouldn't sign on to Islam..

    But as to his being 'a prophet', here are some definitions.

    1. A person who speaks by divine inspiration or as the interpreter through whom the will of a god is expressed.
    2. A person gifted with profound moral insight and exceptional powers of expression.
    3. A predictor; a soothsayer.
    4. The chief spokesperson of a movement or cause.

    I'd give him number 4.
    You are confusing history with faith. According to their religion and to history, He was a Prophet. You don't have to believe it. You can call Him a false Prophet. But if you want to place things into perspectives and to better understand the mind of people, you have to except that to billions of people He was a Prophet.

    The "pedophile" label just encourages the validation of your anger. You don't need it. There's enough frustration and disaster in this civilization without using the "pedophile" label to explain the problems.
    Last edited by MSgt; 04-09-11 at 01:54 PM.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    You are confusing history with faith.
    Perhaps that's because you never mentioned faith. I realize that Muslims have faith that he is a prophet but that doesn't make him one, not does your calling him a prophet make him one, with the exception of number 4. on that list of definitions.
    According to their religion and to history, He was a Prophet.
    Exactly. That's number 4.

    You don't have to believe it. You can call Him a false Prophet. But if you want to place things into perspectives and to better understand the mind of people, you have to except that to billions of people He was a Prophet.
    I understand that also. And to understand things from a non Muslim perspective you have to understand that Mohamed is nothing very special at all. In fact whatever good points he may have had are certainly outweighed by the negatives. These are well documented. And that millions call him a "prophet" says more about the general lack of education among Muslims than anything I need add.

    The "pedophile" label just encourages the validation of your anger. You don't need it. There's enough frustration and disaster in this civilization without using the "pedophile" label to explain the problems.
    My anger? Mark it down as annoyance, at worst.

    When Americans are exercising their first amendment rights, and then Muslims murder over 20 innocent people, and the blame is on the American, than I think people are seriously losing their perspective, as well as risking further restraints on public dialog. Rather than male the false claim that I am angry, why not direct your attention the the perpetrators of the act? That should make you plenty angry.

    And I will call this pedophile a pedophile. That's what he was, and more. If you want to silence people then you can march with the Muslims, insisting that there be restrictions on freedom of speech, just as they have done in Europe.

    It is well past time free people began speaking out against these Muslim outrages and get people to realize that when they turn against free speech, they must certainly be aligning themselves with the wrong side. Otherwise they'd be all for free speech, and not trying to silence anyone.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Compare Muslim countries to non-Muslim countries. Where do you see the killing of those of different faiths? Muslim countries. Where are churches and synagogues burned down? Muslim countries. Where are mosques burned down? ?? ???? That's right, none. Where is it a death sentence to change your religion? Muslim countries.

    Who have committed acts of terrorism on the basis of their religion in the last 40 years? Muslims. The majority of Muslims haven't attacked a non-Muslim country or people simply because they can't get to them. But that doesn't mean they don't support Jihad. The man who doesn't go has no problem putting some money in the plate to pay for those who do. Or he sends his son. The list goes on and on....
    This is where so many hang up their brains. One side will argue that it's obviously a Muslim thing. The other side will counter and state that Muslims are successful in Indonesia and such. The proper question is "Why is the Middle East such a basket case?" But people don't want to actually think about the problem. You just hear slogans like "you can't bomb them into democracy, you can't throw the military at it, it's none of our business," and "they're not all terrorists." You just hear words like "terrorists, pedophile," and "evil." None of this addresses the effort and it doesn'thelp when our own politicians shy away from admitting that this is and has always been about the entire region. They keep it simple so that people can compartmentalize the effort amongst nice neat borders on a map. They pretend (some are just too stupid to know any better) that we have "three" separate wars going on. What they don't tell the American people from behind their microphones is that our diplomats in and out of military uniform are working throughout the MENA region, ever since 9/11, and have been addressing the very same social issues that all these "states" have.

    It's only in the West that such simpleton idiocracies are occurring. Our enemies talk about the Muslim people without addressing the nation states. The Nation of Islam has no borders. The organized religious movements and groups hold members that comes from all over the region. "Iraqi," "Kuwaiti," "Saudi," "Egyptian," "Libyan," etc. are labels that came after European colonialism, which are new labels in history. Even today they are secondary to the "Muslim peoples."

    The fact that Muslims far removed from the MENA region have played part in the "Global War on Terror" is evidence that the propaganda of the region has far reaching implications. The lost souls of the Bali bombing, London bombing, Major dickhead shooting, and Madrid bombing simply stem from personalized guilt and a natural drive to ensure a place in heaven by heeding the call of the jihad. Propaganda and the media's exposure has a way of igniting people's perspectives into unnecessary places. And don't get me started on the converted who feel that they have something to prove in order to belong to their new community.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    This is where so many hang up their brains.
    Try not to condescend with those whose opinions differ from your own, MSgt.
    One side will argue that it's obviously a Muslim thing. The other side will counter and state that Muslims are successful in Indonesia and such.
    It is a Muslim thing and there are serious problems in Indonesia, and Africa also if we want to go international. In fact, as we can clearly see, Muslims are going international. You can add Western Europe to that list and now the mightiest of them all, the United States, is faltering.
    The proper question is "Why is the Middle East such a basket case?" But people don't want to actually think about the problem.
    Sure they do. That's why people are participating on these debates, here and elsewhere.
    You just hear slogans like "you can't bomb them into democracy, you can't throw the military at it, it's none of our business," and "they're not all terrorists." You just hear words like "terrorists, pedophile," and "evil." None of this addresses the effort and it doesn'thelp when our own politicians shy away from admitting that this is and has always been about the entire region.
    No, no and no, It may have begun in one region but it is no longer restricted to that region. You're talking 15 years ago.

    They keep it simple so that people can compartmentalize the effort amongst nice neat borders on a map. They pretend (some are just too stupid to know any better) that we have "three" separate wars going on. What they don't tell the American people from behind their microphones is that our diplomats in and out of military uniform are working throughout the MENA region, ever since 9/11, and have been addressing the very same social issues that all these "states" have.
    And they obviously have had very limited success. Why anyone would still believe in politically correct international diplomacy will forever be a mystery.
    It's only in the West that such simpleton idiocracies are occurring. Our enemies talk about the Muslim people without addressing the nation states. The Nation of Islam has no borders. The organized religious movements and groups hold members that comes from all over the region. "Iraqi," "Kuwaiti," "Saudi," "Egyptian," "Libyan," etc. are labels that came after European colonialism, which are new labels in history. Even today they are secondary to the "Muslim peoples."
    That is what is being said while you're claim "The proper question is "Why is the Middle East such a basket case?", The source of the problem was and largely is the Middle East, but it is Islam that is a basket case, and we can all see that if we first remove our rose-colored glasses.The problem is Islam and there is little we can do about it but defend ourselves and our liberties. Compromise is not a serious option, and we only need look to Europe for verification of that.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    We are discussing a Florida Pastor who burned a Koran and did nothing illegal or unethical in doing so.
    We are well aware of your opinion on the matter, but that's all it is. An opinion.

    This is not related to the subject of the thread but if you are trying to compare these people to what the Muslims did to the UN workers, or indeed any Muslims riots, then you are well off the mark.
    You asked for proof that law-abiding Moslems were being hounded in western countries. There it is. Of course they are not being murdered. That happened in Afghanistan, one of the basket cases of the modern world. Why would you even think of comparing the situations of the US and Afghanistan?
    So you are defending his right to say whatever he thinks? Good for you!
    It's a shame you're not quite so strong in defending the right of free expression.
    Freedom of expression is one of the most basic building blocks of western civilization. If you want to deny people that right, as they have done in Europe, then it is a major setback for people everywhere, though I doubt your pleas will have much effect on Americans. Their right to freedom of expression is too ingrained in their culture to follow the steps taken in Europe.
    Please tell me what aspect of this debate would be banned in any country of the EU?

    And you're upset that the 'rest of society' is not voicing their 'deep disapproval', but are instead defending his right to speak out on a controversial subject?
    Have you not been reading this and other threads on the subject? There's a lot of disapproval for the unethical, irresponsible and hateful actions of the Rev out there. You're the person on DP most fullsome in your praise of his actions.
    That lock step thinking so commonplace in Europe has not yet arrived in the United States, and I'm hoping it never does.
    What's it to you or me? You're not American and neither am I. You don't live in the US and neither do I. Why don't you express any hopes or wishes on behalf of your own country?
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

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