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Thread: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Excellent question....finding an acceptable solution, but first of all, we, the west, must accept that, we have a problem with Islam.
    This is so typical. You pretend that their's no difference between Middle Eastern Sunni Islam and the nice little Muslim man in Iowa.

    Why would that be "first of all?" Before 9/11, nobody in America gave Islam a second thought. Of course, before 9/11 Islamic terrorists and zealots had been targetting the West (especially America) since the 1950s. Weren't we designated as the enemy of Islam by Sayyid Qutb before we even supported Israel? Weren't our troops murdered in Beirut while obeying ROEs that did not permit the inherent right to self defense in the 1980s? Wasn't it American soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines that were murdered throughout the 1990s while most of America ignored it?

    Oh, but after 9/11 we should "first accept" that we in the West have a problem with Islam? That'll fix it all right up. You do realize that no amount of Islamic ass kissing will make them change their minds about you, right? You are the Islamic zealot's enemy no matter what you do.

    By the way, we already have the solution. Muslims throughout the region are finally doing it before your very eyes.
    Last edited by MSgt; 04-08-11 at 01:33 PM.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    This is so typical. You pretend that their's no difference between Middle Eastern Sunni Islam and the nice little Muslim man in Iowa.

    Why would that be "first of all?" Before 9/11, nobody in America gave Islam a second thought. Of course, before 9/11 Islamic terrorists and zealots had been targetting the West (especially America) since the 1950s. Weren't we designated as the enemy of Islam by Sayyid Qutb before we even supported Israel? Weren't our troops murdered in Beirut while obeying ROEs that did not permit the inherent right to self defense in the 1980s? Wasn't it American soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines that were murdered throughout the 1990s while most of America ignored it?

    Oh, but after 9/11 we should "first accept" that we in the West have a problem with Islam? That'll fix it all right up. You do realize that no amount of Islamic ass kissing will make them change their minds about you, right? You are the Islamic zealot's enemy no matter what you do.

    By the way, we already have the solution. Muslims throughout the region are finally doing it before your very eyes.
    Assume we wanted to provide economic assistance and were able to achieve some sort of industry building in the ME. What do we do when the next charismatic Imam rolls around and preaches a fiery message about how good people have it, how blessed by Allah they are, and now they need to use that wealth to continue the work of spreading Islam, and establish sharia law around the world, especially to those nations where good Muslims are living under infidel domination?

    What do we do to address the cause, not the symptom? Is there a solution that does not mean genocide of one side, or conversion/dhimmitude of the other? Or do we accept that there will be a state of war to varying degrees between Islam and non-Islam for centuries to come?

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Hitler burned books. He didn't do anything wrong. No big deal? You don't seem to grasp the damage and destruction that ceremonial book burnings incur.
    Therre is a great deal of difference between an individual burning a book and a government or their representatives burning books. This was not censorship of any sort.

    There are unintended consequences to almost everything we do and decide. This rather large piece of **** decided to burn a Qu'ran with absolutely no care for any troop or effort abroad.
    Troops are armed and should be able to protect themselves. If they are unable to protect themselves then the problem lies elsewhere. Members of the Military in Fort Hood were shot and killed and yet there were no Korans being burnt. Instead there was an obvious lack of security and a refusal to look at reality.

    I warned people right here on this site last year about this fool's behaviors. The fact that those religious freaks targetted weak UN personnel and not US military personnel shows their depravity. But let's not pretend that there's much of a difference between these Christian zealots and those Islamic zealots. Take away the pampered Disney Land that is America and these book burners would murder you for their twisted sense of God work.
    Why are UN personnel not better protected? This is not the first time they've been attacked by Muslims and yet they still don't seem to have proper security or those protecting them are fearful of firing at the crowds attacking them. All this has nothing to do with a Florida pastor but instead is a diversion from where the real problems lie. The problem is Islam.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Assume we wanted to provide economic assistance and were able to achieve some sort of industry building in the ME. What do we do when the next charismatic Imam rolls around and preaches a fiery message about how good people have it, how blessed by Allah they are, and now they need to use that wealth to continue the work of spreading Islam, and establish sharia law around the world, especially to those nations where good Muslims are living under infidel domination?

    What do we do to address the cause, not the symptom? Is there a solution that does not mean genocide of one side, or conversion/dhimmitude of the other? Or do we accept that there will be a state of war to varying degrees between Islam and non-Islam for centuries to come?
    Be practical. I believe France elected an emperor and Germany elected a dictator, both of which terrorized an entire region through their charisma and preachings. Perhaps we can forgive the probable inevitable temporary zealot in the Middle East as they travel the path of the West? After all, I guarantee that no charismatic Imam will drive the globe into World War.

    9/11 was the symptom as is every radical organization throughout the region. The disease (cause) is this failed civilization. It's the lack of proper education, lack of economic and political opportunity (most can't even afford to get married), lack of opportunity for individual and family success, unnatural borders, and political & tribal oppression that drives so many to their local religious freak who claims that Allah has the answers. If we give this civilization the ability to remove these obstacles, which guarantee a path to absolute failure, then we lessen the amount of violence within Islam. Only one form of government has ever been proven to be resilient enough to tackle such problems and produce healthy growth on the economic, social, and religious level.

    So the question....."Can democracy work within Islam?" First we have to acknowledge the grand difference between the Muslim government of Indonesia and the Sunni Arab governments of the Middle East (which is also not Iran). Next we should appreciate that Muhammad married Islam to government the moment he made himself his own caeser, which guarantees a struggle to seperate the two. But we also have to acknowledge that the first caliphates were democratically elected by the elders. In the beginning of European colonialism, a strong political movement amongst Muslim Arabs was for democracy. They were denied and the selective balance of power shifted from traditional roles to favored unearned individuals that helped to create the economic disparity that exists today. Then came the "Age of Independence" after World War II. Modernists again sought democracy, but saw this fall to one military coup after another and their Cold War lean determined their preservation. They were again denied. Today, long after the Cold War ended, they are finally erupting from one "country" to the next along the same theme...."democracy."

    So we aren't injecting the West into the Middle East or forcing our culture upon them. We are merely facilitating opportunity, after three hundred years of facilitating oppression and tribal strife. Radicalism and terrorism is something they turned to for answers as they designed every and any excuse they could find to legitimize it. It's time to assist their wants for different answers. Worrying about the possible religious zealot that may emerge from this civilization temporarily is unfair. The world doesn't get to emerge from colonialism and dictators into the free democratic world without them. Not anymore. The only alternative is to accept further symptoms of the disease.

    And no, none of this had to cost as much as it has. But this is where we need to seperate the effort from the pieces of **** in Washington who are still trying to figure out what's going on.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Therre is a great deal of difference between an individual burning a book and a government or their representatives burning books. This was not censorship of any sort.
    It's ceremonial book burning. It doesn't matter why. Nazis burned to censor and to promote nationalism. This failed Christian burned to promote hate. Do you not see how hate is a theme amongst book burners? Let's change the item up. How do you feel when some cock burns the American flag? Just a rag right? That flag burner is trying to incite a reaction. What do you think this piece of **** preacher was doing? And when the murders happen he dares to pretend that he bears no responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Why are UN personnel not better protected?
    Who cares? Perhaps a European force can find it in themselves to actually be useful and babysit them better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    The problem is Islam.
    The problem is that our troops are largely fighting this regional effort alone while American politicians are finding ways to **** it up and American Christians are burning Qu'rans and protesting at their funerals. With American support like this, how much of Islam's problems become harder and harder to deal with?

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Be practical
    I'm so practical....its not even funny

    It is not just Islam, MSgt it is the cultures around the world that are Islamic. The Arab nations and cultures vary from Arabia and the middle east across Africa, and they are different from Persian, Pathan, Indonesian, Filipino, etc. Plus the differences between Sunni and Shi'a, and the differences in Sunni Islam itself. Four schools of Islamic jurisprudence, plus "cults" like the Wahabis, etc, etc. At this time, it appears that the Koran and Hadith provide ample latitude for an interpretation that Jihad against unbelievers is a continuing duty for all Muslims.

    I think there are 3 basic outcomes outta this mess

    A The annihilation of Islam and every Muslim from Mother Earth. Destroy or convert every Muslim man, woman and child, burn their mosques, Korans and every writing.

    Aka Wipe them out

    B We convert to Islam or die. They win. No more dar el harb, only the dar el Islam

    C Accept that there will be a state of war to varying degrees between Islam and non-Islam for centuries to come.

    I pick C

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    [QUOTE=Grant;1059398297]

    Therre is a great deal of difference between an individual burning a book and a government or their representatives burning books. This was not censorship of any sort.
    Yes, you and Gardener have been pedalling this idea for some time now. I'd like to know what the difference is. Censorship is when someone wish to prevent or dissuade others from watching, hearing or reading material they deem inappropriate. That is what the Rev and his cohorts were doing with 'Burn the Koran Day'. It makes no difference that they didn't do it officially. Many, many book-burnings (most of those during the Inquisition, for example) were not carried out by the government of the day but by self-appointed moral guardians. It was censorship then and is censorship today.
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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    I'm so practical....its not even funny
    Nu-uh, I'm so practical it's not even funny.


    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    It is not just Islam, MSgt it is the cultures around the world that are Islamic. The Arab nations and cultures vary from Arabia and the middle east across Africa, and they are different from Persian, Pathan, Indonesian, Filipino, etc. Plus the differences between Sunni and Shi'a, and the differences in Sunni Islam itself. Four schools of Islamic jurisprudence, plus "cults" like the Wahabis, etc, etc. At this time, it appears that the Koran and Hadith provide ample latitude for an interpretation that Jihad against unbelievers is a continuing duty for all Muslims.
    You are too willing to look at their differences from one nation to the next. It's not that simple to pretend that Libya is only Libya, and Iraq is only Iraq, and Afghanistan is only Afghanistan, and Jordan is only Jordan. The problem here is that these tribes transcend the unnatural borders. For example, and as I'm sure you know, the Kurds are the greatest ethnically concentrated tribe on earth without a nation. They are carved up between Iraq, Syria, Turkey, and Iran. This means that all four countries share a very common theme amongst their people. Transfer this over to the Sunni Arab tribe, which colonized most of the entire region. During the "Age of Independence" they all followed one another into military coup. They all shared the same social problems and religious zealotry for decades. Today, they all once again follow each other down the same theme. This is because not only are they tied religiously, but their individual tribes - underneath Sunni - are carved up amongst the borders.

    There are two types of Jihad. 1) A personal struggle for God, which is spiritual and 2) An outward struggle to defend Islam. The latter is the norm and the development of civilization and globalization has twisted and perverted the word down through history. There will probably always be those who need their guarantee into heaven and therefore will always seek the latest Pokemon or "foriegn devil" cultural spread to get it. But the fact is that people who have lives are not so quick to throw them away. If this fact is universal (which it is), then this means that a healthier MENA region means less fanaticism and extremism. And that is the long term security goal of the WOT.



    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    I think there are 3 basic outcomes outta this mess

    A The annihilation of Islam and every Muslim from Mother Earth. Destroy or convert every Muslim man, woman and child, burn their mosques, Korans and every writing.

    Aka Wipe them out

    B We convert to Islam or die. They win. No more dar el harb, only the dar el Islam

    C Accept that there will be a state of war to varying degrees between Islam and non-Islam for centuries to come.

    I pick C
    A Samuel Huntington fan? The "Clash of Civilizations" wasn't such a reach because historically that is exactly what civilizations do. They clash. Outcome letter "C" is going to naturally occur. The point is to make it more manageable than it is. But another fact is that our security has always relied upon the health of foriegn regions. An unhealthy north Africa sucked us out to fight the Barbary Pirates Wars to secure our trades through the Med. An unhealthy Europe sucked us into a World War. An unhealthy Pacific sucked us out into the ocean and then an unhealthy Europe sucked us back across the Atlantic. During the Cold War we maintained "stability" in unhealthy regions via the supplied (and sometimes not supplied) dictator. We now have entered the next phase in human history and our next security challenge. The Cold War dictators have long outlived their expiration dates. We have is, yet, another unhealthy region full of religious radicals and extremists amongst a much larger population that want to finally try something healthy to organize their people and gain them opportunity. It's win/win.

    Think of it like this. What happens when the oil runs out? You think they'll just roll over and start a new as the wealth of their region jumps ship and defects abroad? The radicalism and extremism of the day is nothing compared to what their miseries will permit then. With Iran seeking the Shia bomb to compete with the Sunni, Jewish, and Indian bomb, we may wind up with basic outcome letter "A." And what good would nuclear holocaust do for the world? No ocean will protect us from that ****.
    Last edited by MSgt; 04-08-11 at 04:39 PM.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Yes, you and Gardener have been pedalling this idea for some time now. I'd like to know what the difference is. Censorship is when someone wish to prevent or dissuade others from watching, hearing or reading material they deem inappropriate. That is what the Rev and his cohorts were doing with 'Burn the Koran Day'. It makes no difference that they didn't do it officially. Many, many book-burnings (most of those during the Inquisition, for example) were not carried out by the government of the day but by self-appointed moral guardians. It was censorship then and is censorship today.
    The theme is a promotion of hate and condemnation. You know, like Jesus taught us.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    It's ceremonial book burning. It doesn't matter why.
    Although 'ceremonial' is a rather extravagant word, there is certainly a great deal of symbolism attached. But let's also keep in mind that this was a formerly obscure Florida preacher carrying out this 'ceremony' and not a national government. So why Muslims attacked the UN rather than the man who actually committed the deed makes no sense at all. I suspect these murders were also "ceremonial" or symbolic, and the message, as in earlier messages contained in earlier Muslims riots and murders was, "Don't mess with Islam". That is all they are saying, and this Florida preacher, like the cartoon riots, actually meant very little. They are only showing who's really the boss, and it works. Now you have prominent American politicians and the media suggesting abandoning the First Amendment, just to avoid possible Islamic payback..


    [QUOTE]
    Nazis burned to censor and to promote nationalism. This failed Christian burned to promote hate.
    Promote hate? It seems to me he was attempting to point out the more homicidal tendencies of Muslims, and he succeeded beyond anyone's wildest dreams. Certainly we knew Muslims could be psychopathic, which is why there were the warnings, but not many knew that there were no limits to their hatreds. Hunting down innocent and unarmed men and women in the UN compound to murder them? There is no excuse for that, and to blame it on a resident of Florida makes no sense whatsoever.

    Do you not see how hate is a theme amongst book burners?
    Sure I do, though their motives might be a little different.
    Let's change the item up. How do you feel when some cock burns the American flag? Just a rag right? That flag burner is trying to incite a reaction. What do you think this piece of **** preacher was doing? And when the murders happen he dares to pretend that he bears no responsibility?
    I would think the flag burners are idiots who cannot find a more intelligent way to express themselves. But I wouldn't even raise my voice at such an event much less murder innocent people in a far off country, completely unrelated to the event.

    Who cares? Perhaps a European force can find it in themselves to actually be useful and babysit them better.
    Europe will not act until it is too late. In fact that's part of their DNA.

    The problem is that our troops are largely fighting this regional effort alone while American politicians are finding ways to **** it up and American Christians are burning Qu'rans and protesting at their funerals. With American support like this, how much of Islam's problems become harder and harder to deal with?
    So what if Americans are rubbishing Muslims? They rubbished the Gerrys and the Japs during WWII but now we are supposed to be silent?? Who put Muslims in charge of free speech and opinion? That's an appointment they appropriated.

    We should become harder and harder to deal with ourselves and not give a stuff about their sensitivities. Are we pulling for a win here or a draw? Or are we going to abandon all our rights and freedoms (temporarily) because we're dealing with an enemy who has no compunction in murdering innocents? If we abandon our core principles now, it might be a lot more difficult to get them back in the future.

    Let this Florida pastor speak out and consider Voltaire when he said "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". Bow to a foreign religion? I don't think that's wise over the long term.

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