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Thread: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    As we've seen in Europe, as soon as they get the numbers they push for Sharia. It's created considerable unnecessary tension in Europe, and I don't want to see the same sort of discussions going on there here in America. If Muslims want to worship and build mosques here, they can knock themselves out. Just don't try to tell me how to live my life. If I want to burn your book, I reserve the right to do it.
    Hrrm I wasnt expecting an 'islamic creep' argument. But somehow... I seriously doubt that any non-muslims would end up in Sharia courts in the west. The idea screams of pre-emptive victimization.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    The good reverend performed a public service by drawing attention to the fact that fundamentalist Muslims don't respect Western customs and political institutions.
    Is there any reason they should? I'd have thought that it's their own political institutions, feeble and nascent though they may be, that the fundamentalists ought to be pressurised into respecting. Are you expecting them to pledge alleigance to the flag of the US or something?

    As we've seen in Europe, as soon as they get the numbers they push for Sharia. It's created considerable unnecessary tension in Europe, and I don't want to see the same sort of discussions going on there here in America. If Muslims want to worship and build mosques here, they can knock themselves out. Just don't try to tell me how to live my life. If I want to burn your book, I reserve the right to do it.
    Everyone has the right to propose ideas and changes to the society in which they live. Sharia has not been applied forcibly onto any citizen of any EU state. No one has introduced legislation to do so and the matter has never been proposed in a single EU parliament. Please provide evidence to the contrary if you have any.

    No one has suggested that the Rev. Jones should have been forcibly prevented from burning every religious tract of every faith except his own little sect. He has the right to do so, but with that right comes the responsibility to face the consequences of your actions. It would appear that many people here want to protect him from having to face any consequences for his fascistic actions.
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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    What are the repercussions of burning a book. I think that some people who say that "no one wants to forcibly prevent" blah blah blah want there to be some amount of government forced wielded against the preacher.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    What are the repercussions of burning a book. I think that some people who say that "no one wants to forcibly prevent" blah blah blah want there to be some amount of government forced wielded against the preacher.
    That seems a perfectly reasonable question. What should happen to the Rev. Jones as a consequence of taking the action which indirectly led to the deaths of the UN workers, consciously and inadvisedly? I passionately believe in the right of free expression, but I also passionately believe that those who have the privilege of enjoying such rights have a duty to use it responsibly. Clearly he did the opposite of this. I don't know whether the US has laws about incitement to violent disorder or not. I'm not sure either whether Rev Jones' actions could be construed as having directly incited that violence, but I certainly think it would be worth looking at.

    Ultimately, I suspect he did nothing illegal, merely immoral.
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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Is there any reason they should? I'd have thought that it's their own political institutions, feeble and nascent though they may be, that the fundamentalists ought to be pressurised into respecting. Are you expecting them to pledge alleigance to the flag of the US or something?
    Perhap[s the bigger question is whether we in the West respect our political institutions, human rights, including that of women and children, free speech, freedom of and from religion, and so on. And how strongly do we believe them to be good things? Good enough that everyone everywhere should have them, or only good enough that the democracies have them? Are we, as the ancient question goes, our brother's keeper? The Left seems to believe that on a local level we are bt on an international level we are not. There seems to be good arguments from both sides, at least on the international level.


    Everyone has the right to propose ideas and changes to the society in which they live. Sharia has not been applied forcibly onto any citizen of any EU state. No one has introduced legislation to do so and the matter has never been proposed in a single EU parliament. Please provide evidence to the contrary if you have any.
    It seems that there is no need to forcibly apply Sharia as it is being done voluntarily, and the consequences of non-complaince, as we have just seen, can be quite severe. Discretion will certainly win over valor these days.

    No one has suggested that the Rev. Jones should have been forcibly prevented from burning every religious tract of every faith except his own little sect. He has the right to do so, but with that right comes the responsibility to face the consequences of your actions. It would appear that many people here want to protect him from having to face any consequences for his fascistic actions.
    He has every right to do what he did and his rights should be defended, though not necessarily what he said or did. Anger should instead be directed at those who committed the murders.

    Standing up to Islam is a lot more difficult than appeasement and that's why Western institutions, such as freedom of speech, will be eroded as far as Islam goes. The West is losing the battle, particularly in Europe, and that will continue into the foreseeable future.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post

    Ultimately, I suspect he did nothing illegal, merely immoral.
    Nope, Pastor did nothing wrong... and this is why ALL Islam is dangerous and inimical to the west.

    Burn one single copy of the Quran and they go nuts. If that doesn't put everything in perspective, I don't know what will.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I passionately believe in the right of free expression, but.....
    Not all that passionately, it seems, and those who make those claims often tend to have a 'but' following.

    I believe in women's right but...

    Either we have freedom of expression or we don't. There was recently a US Supreme Court decision allowing some Christian nut-cases to shout ugliness near a young Marine's funeral, and that right was, rightfully, upheld by the Courts.

    We don't have to agree with the speech to allow it, and it will frequently be tested, but it is absolutely essential that it be protected.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Nope, Pastor did nothing wrong... and this is why ALL Islam is dangerous and inimical to the west.

    Burn one single copy of the Quran and they go nuts. If that doesn't put everything in perspective, I don't know what will.
    This is not a war between Christianity and Islam. It is not "all Islam" that is the problem. It is religious extremists that are the problem.

    Thank God, Allah, Jehovah, and Zeus, there is no war between two of the world's major religions. Such a war would end civilization as we know it.
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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    That seems a perfectly reasonable question. What should happen to the Rev. Jones as a consequence of taking the action which indirectly led to the deaths of the UN workers, consciously and inadvisedly? I passionately believe in the right of free expression, but I also passionately believe that those who have the privilege of enjoying such rights have a duty to use it responsibly. Clearly he did the opposite of this. I don't know whether the US has laws about incitement to violent disorder or not. I'm not sure either whether Rev Jones' actions could be construed as having directly incited that violence, but I certainly think it would be worth looking at.

    Ultimately, I suspect he did nothing illegal, merely immoral.
    No, he did not do anything illegal. Stupid, yes. But not illegal. In fact what he did was to participate in a very protected form of speech. As such, I see very little we can do to enforce "repercussions" for having exercised a right.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Perhap[s the bigger question is whether we in the West respect our political institutions, human rights, including that of women and children, free speech, freedom of and from religion, and so on. And how strongly do we believe them to be good things?
    That is a bigger question, and a very different one to the one we were discussing. Happy to take it up, but perhaps you ought to start a different thread and not hijack this one. I'll certainly be happy to debate it.

    Good enough that everyone everywhere should have them, or only good enough that the democracies have them?
    Only if they want them. Of course finding out whether they do is more than fraught with a few difficulties.

    Are we, as the ancient question goes, our brother's keeper? The Left seems to believe that on a local level we are bt on an international level we are not.
    I'd say the Left, in a very, very general sense, would suggest that everyone deserves democracy, liberty and human rights just not everybody knows that such things are desirable.
    There seems to be good arguments from both sides, at least on the international level.
    Well, that's for that other thread, I think.
    It seems that there is no need to forcibly apply Sharia as it is being done voluntarily, and the consequences of non-complaince, as we have just seen, can be quite severe. Discretion will certainly win over valor these days.
    Well, as the libertarians would say, "if there's no coercion, there's no injustice".



    He has every right to do what he did and his rights should be defended, though not necessarily what he said or did. Anger should instead be directed at those who committed the murders.
    Most of it, yes. But he should certainly be condemned as the sh**-stirring, mindless bigot that he certainly seems to be.

    Standing up to Islam is a lot more difficult than appeasement and that's why Western institutions, such as freedom of speech, will be eroded as far as Islam goes. The West is losing the battle, particularly in Europe, and that will continue into the foreseeable future.
    I see you've adopted the crusader mentality. Most of us here in Europe don't consider ourselves to be involved in a war with Islam. If that's your crusade, you're welcome to it.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

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