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Thread: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    They are indeed like you or me. No better, no worse. The difference is that neither you nor I have lived through times in which our country was invaded repeatedly by foreign armies, nor placed under the edict of religious authoritarians. Neither you nor I can guarantee what our response to provocation might be were we living under certain circumstances. It's very comfy for us to speculate, to say "well, not everyone rioted, so those that did are just deranged fanatics, terrorists even", when we don't know how we might behave ourselves. I would hope not to turn into a rampaging, blood-thirsty zealot just as I would hope I wouldn't have turned into a KKK member in post-Civil War America, or a Francoist in Civil War Spain, but speculating on how you might behave is very different from knowing. Of course most Afghans know that murder is not the appropriate response to some idiot Protestant's provocation. Hell, I'm sure some of the people involved in the violence are now wracked with guilt at their behaviour. People behave in wildly outrageous ways under exceptional circumstances. They then have to live with the consequences of that aberrant behaviour.
    Yes, killing random people, by choice, will always be deranged and fanatical

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by ManofthPeephole View Post
    So basically if the government starts executing people for participating in free speech, you still view the right of free speech existing?

    Yes, that makes perfect sense

    Those rights don't actually exist unless you can exercise them without facing some form of threat
    You just changed the goalposts. If the government eliminates free speech as a right, making it illegal, it is no longer a right. The scenario is completely different.
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    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by soguks View Post
    s/he cannot see the mentality behind the comments , s/he just reads the words; thats why s/he labels me ; thats ok for me , cuz it is typical of an american...when they understand the world does not revolve around them , we will not see bombs in everywhere in the world or some soldiers killing the civilians by ''mistake'' and then take picture of those killings with a smile on their faces..
    Perhaps you should be more clear with your comments. Then, perhaps, people can understand what you are trying to communicate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by ManofthPeephole View Post
    Yes, killing random people, by choice, will always be deranged and fanatical
    Mark Steyn summed up the situation quite well.

    Re: Lindsey Graham and the First Amendment - By Mark Steyn - The Corner - National Review Online

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You just changed the goalposts. If the government eliminates free speech as a right, making it illegal, it is no longer a right. The scenario is completely different.
    then just have a scenario where Obama has a death squad that kills his critics. In such a scenario you would have only the illusion of the right, not the right

    though I think the original example illustrates this point just fine, and the legality of speech, prior to the introductions of death squads, is inconsequential to the logic

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by ManofthPeephole View Post
    then just have a scenario where Obama has a death squad that kills his critics. In such a scenario you would have only the illusion of the right, not the right
    You are again changing the goalposts. This would be a dictatorship, a type of government where free speech is often not a right at all.

    though I think the original example illustrates this point just fine, and the legality of speech, prior to the introductions of death squads, is inconsequential to the logic
    If the right is eliminated as a right, you no longer have the right to exercise it. It no longer exists.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Wow! You've posted something more than 50% of which I agree with. I'm flabbergasted.

    I think the Napier quote is entertaining and apt. The problem with it is that the British Empire at the time were strapping dissidents over the ends of their cannons and blowing them to pieces for having the effrontery to protest at the foreign domination of their country. Was that so much more civilised than the practice of suttee? Nevertheless, the quote seems relevant.

    The other thing with which I disagree is the way Steyn gives the Rev. Book Burner a free pass on his incitement to violence. I suspect he would be one of those who jumped up and down when a few extremist Moslems were burning the Satanic Verses in the streets of Toronto and London. I know I was. How the same behaviour by a religious bigot now gets a pass is beyond me.
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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You are again changing the goalposts. This would be a dictatorship, a type of government where free speech is often not a right at all.
    wait, earlier you said a right exists regardless if there is a physical threat involved, and now you are saying this example of a physical threat doesn't apply to your earlier argument? Honestly, I'm not understanding how you could claim such.

    Again, the right would exist, you would just need to deal with a death squad. Which would be the consequences of your actions, and you could (according to your earlier arguments) choose not to voice your opinion, while still maintaining the right of free speech.



    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    If the right is eliminated as a right, you no longer have the right to exercise it. It no longer exists.
    Right, and the threat of force, in retaliation to an individual exercising their rights, essentially ends those rights. Like in the above example
    Last edited by ManofthPeephole; 04-04-11 at 01:31 PM.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant Noodle View Post
    These Muslims are insane! They act like drunk children that are hate-filled. People that worship Satan are better people than these Islamic animals!! They are barbarians! They killed 12 people because someone burned their book! 12 people DEAD... horribly murdered.... brutally murdered. Because of a book that was burned. Im all for nuking that whole area and wiping out these crazy people!



    CONTINUED w/ video: NYT: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution - US news - The New York Times - msnbc.com
    He is "devastated" by the deaths... good to know he is human unlike the Westboro Baptist people. I however, am not surprised by the reaction in the middle east

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by ManofthPeephole View Post
    wait, earlier you said a right exists regardless if there is a physical threat involved, and now you are saying this example of a physical threat doesn't apply to your earlier argument? Honestly, I'm not understanding how you could claim such.

    Again, the right would exist, you would just need to deal with a death squad. Which would be the consequernces of your actions, and you could (according to your earlier arguments) choose not to voice your opinion.
    Perhaps you and I differ on the definition of a right. For the purposes of this discussion, a right is a legal entity.


    Right, and the threat of force, in retaliation to the exercise of your rights, essentially ends those rights, like the example above
    If the right is eliminated in the way you described, it is no longer a right. For example, if Congress elminated the First Amendment as a right, you burning a book could be a capital offense. You do not have the right to burn the book, in this scenario, therefore, you have no right to lose if you do not burn a book for fear of retribution.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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