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Thread: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Well, I was pretty clear that I don't believe it was a tu quoque fallacy. He wasn't refuting your argument with a claim of hypocrisy, he was avoiding answering your point by raising a separate issue.
    above you wrote "I agree". But, ultimately, i rather not argue over something pretty inconsequential to the discussion


    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I didn't read anything from Soguks that suggested he believes that killing people for burning books is justified. Are you making the claim that the behaviour of burning books is a valid form of free expression or a valid form of protest?
    why wouldn't it be?

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayor Snorkum View Post
    Wrong.

    Now that we know the effectiveness of Koran torching has in creatin civil unrest among our enemies, we should implement a national program of voluntary weekly Koran burnings to foment civil discord in the streets of our enemies. This is war, we should use our enemy's weaknesses against them.

    And hell, a copy of the Koran only costs five bucks, if you can't get if for free from a local mosque. The National Burn a Koran on Saturday, Burn Two During Ramadan could be a killer cost effective program that could decimate the enemy.
    Something like this was tried before and didn't do well.

    Cartoonist Molly Norris in hiding after 'Everybody Draw Mohammed Day' picture | Mail Online

    It was an easy and effortless step to go from political correctness to the censoring the free speech altogether, call it 'seditious' or try to argue that it shouldn't be exercised because someone, somewhere from some crazy third world religion might take offense and kill innocent people. Americans who used to die for the right to express themselves freely are now telling each other to be quiet or it might cause trouble. As though the source of the trouble is the free speech of their fellow Americans.

    Lessons from the past should be telling us that not speaking out in the face of aggression does not work, but along with political correctness we are also part of the age of moral equivalence where we all have our good and bad parts and every culture and belief is worthy.

    These people seem to think that if we only curb our free speech the problems will all go away, but that will be just the start.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    What the guy did was very wrong, short sighted, in some ways selfish (as he did not consider the wider implications of his actions), and frankly, plain stupid as it accomplished very little that was positive other than stroking his own ego and the ego of his flock. It was essentially the same sort of useless activity as burning a nation's flag, an effigy, or putting a little yellow ribbon magnet on your car. The whole thing was a big "look at me!! Aren't I special!!"
    I disagree. I think he knew exactly what he was doing and exactly what kind of response his actions would provoke. He did it with full knowledge that people might die as a result. You have him down as stupid and ignorant; I'd list him under malicious and cynical.

    However, he is no murderer and is not evil. The reaction to the act is all on the barbaric people who chose to react the way they did. I don't care how much they revere a book or what their feelings are, it does not give them the right to kill people who had nothing to do with what some preacher did who they likely did not even know or have never heard of before. The people who did that need to be tried and brought to justice, but sadly, it will likely never happen.
    Quite. He's not a murderer, but that doesn't mean he doesn't bear some degree of guilt for his actions which inflamed an already febrile and intemperate atmosphere. He placed a hand grenade in a bottle, set it afloat and just because he had no idea where it might come ashore, does not mean he has no guilt for the damage it causes when it makes land. He is not evil - good people and evil people do not exist, just good behaviour and bad behaviour, and he indulged in bad behaviour. Not as bad as murder perhaps, but bad nontheless.
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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Quite. He's not a murderer, but that doesn't mean he doesn't bear some degree of guilt for his actions which inflamed an already febrile and intemperate atmosphere. .
    If you believe that afghanis are incapable of any other response, then yes

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by ManofthPeephole View Post
    why wouldn't it be?
    It has a bit of a history, and I'm not merely referring to the Nazi book burnings of the Thirties. It is a very specific activity which sends a very specific message of censorship, of anti-rational, anti-intellectual brutality or wanting to curb free speech and free expression. Book burning is a very loud and violent way of silencing the opposition, not of expressing any positive message whatsoever. Its symbolism is strong and its record as an early harbinger of totalitarian repression is very clear. For those reasons I don't believe it to be a valid form of protest. I would not make it illegal however. I think you'll find that the people who use it as a tactic are absolutely those who would curtail many, many forms of free expression, were they to get the opportunity.

    Book burning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by ManofthPeephole View Post
    If you believe that afghanis are incapable of any other response, then yes
    You don't need to believe such tosh to know that tossing a loaf of bread amongst people driven crazy by hunger will cause a riot. He knew that and he did that. He is guilty of incitement, not of murder.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    It has a bit of a history, and I'm not merely referring to the Nazi book burnings of the Thirties. It is a very specific activity which sends a very specific message of censorship, of anti-rational, anti-intellectual brutality or wanting to curb free speech and free expression.
    I wasn't aware that for something to be a legitimate expression of free speech, or protest, that it had to appeal to the arbitrary approval of random people on the internet. Also, the idea of free speech doesn't isn't dependent on if the subject matter is "anti-rational", "anti-intellectual" or "wanting to curb free speech and free expression". Such messages are still protected speech


    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Book burning is a very loud and violent way of silencing the opposition
    no it isn't


    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    not of expressing any positive message whatsoever.
    the idea of free speech isn't based you thinking the idea is positive, or not. In fact, the real test of free speech is if you allow the type that complete offends the sensibilities and beliefs of the republic

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Its symbolism is strong
    Yes, this is why it's such an effective form of speech and protest, regardless of how you personally feel about it

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    and its record as an early harbinger of totalitarian repression is very clear.
    wait, you're saying if I burn a book in my backyard that fascists will grow from the ashes? Of course not, because there is no clear and unalterable course to totalitarianism created by simply burning a book. This is nothing more than a slippery slope argument


    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    For those reasons I don't believe it to be a valid form of protest.
    you don't have reasons, you have fantasies

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I would not make it illegal however. I think you'll find that the people who use it as a tactic are absolutely those who would curtail many, many forms of free expression, were they to get the opportunity.
    I'm sure in this case you're absolutely right. but a) that doesn't make it an invalid form of protest b) relinquish their right to free speech

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    You don't need to believe such tosh to know that tossing a loaf of bread amongst people driven crazy by hunger will cause a riot. He knew that and he did that. He is guilty of incitement, not of murder.
    you just compared them to crazy people that have no self control. So it does sound like you believe such "tosh"

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    You don't need to believe such tosh to know that tossing a loaf of bread amongst people driven crazy by hunger will cause a riot. He knew that and he did that. He is guilty of incitement, not of murder.
    Wrong. The incitement came from the Karzai corrupt government. They had agents in the crowd that not only incited the mob but also participated in the murders.The UN has a poor track record in A-stan to boot.

    Not trying to sling mud at anyone here, but; "If the shoe fits, wear it... if not then disregard"

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by ManofthPeephole View Post
    you just compared them to crazy people that have no self control. So it does sound like you believe such "tosh"
    Yes, I did. I've spoken several times about the febrile and intemperate atmosphere there caused by the military situation, the political situation and the ambience of general religious and social turmoil. To my mind this means people will behave in a manner that, given an atmosphere of calm, peace and contentment, they would not behave. Are they responsible for their actions? Sure. Of course they are. Are they able to think rationally and take calm, disinterested decisions based on reasonable points of view? No. Not at all, not under current conditions. Someone committing a crime passionel in the heat of the moment is still guilty of the crime, but it is explained somewhat by the state of mind of the person at the moment of committing that crime. Isn't it telling that the murders took place in Afghanistan? Why there and not other fiercely faithful Islamic countries like Indonesia, Morocco, Oman or Iran? Why Afghanistan? Because people there are currently not behaving as they normally would.
    Last edited by Andalublue; 04-04-11 at 11:39 AM.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

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