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Thread: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikeyy View Post
    and completely unlike anything we are talking about..
    Yes, because the reply was an attempt to distract from the fact that the pastor didn't kill anyone by pointing out supposed hypocrisy. Citing the incidents involving the KKK is to extrapolate the effects of the logic being used, and see how it pans out in other circumstances, and isn't being used to attack posters, but their arguments

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikeyy View Post
    and completely unlike anything we are talking about..
    Just a friendly point; your posts would be much easier to follow if you could put your comment after the quote to which it refers, rather than before. You kind of have to read your posts backwards to get them.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Not quite. It's not a tu quoque because he is not denigrating your argument by calling you a hypocrite, he is pointing out the hypocrisy of a third party, i.e. the western allies. I was also at pains to point out that the existence of these double standards does not detract from the culpability of those murdering mobsters.
    look at his reply, and what he was replying to.

    CC wrote "I would think not. The people killed in Afghanistan where killed by Muslim extremists. Get your facts straight."

    Soak guts wrote: "the year 1998 the us military bombed two factories in Sudan after the terrorist attacks at two Us embassies in kenya and tanzania; but in those factories medicine and toys were being produced, unlike the claims by US that there were chemical weapons.

    the year 2001 terrorists attacked US and then US invaded Afghanistan,

    the year 2003 Us invaded Iraq by claiming there was nuks...the list continues....


    tell me who is mixing the apples and pears?"

    That has absolutely nothing to do with what CC wrote, besides as casting him as a hypocrite

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    That is so weird. It's the first mistake I have ever made. LOL
    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Just a friendly point; your posts would be much easier to follow if you could put your comment after the quote to which it refers, rather than before. You kind of have to read your posts backwards to get them.

    Kind regards,

    Anda
    Oooops I mean,
    That is so weird. It's the first mistake I have ever made. LOL

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by ManofthPeephole View Post
    look at his reply, and what he was replying to.

    CC wrote "I would think not. The people killed in Afghanistan where killed by Muslim extremists. Get your facts straight."

    Soak guts wrote: "the year 1998 the us military bombed two factories in Sudan after the terrorist attacks at two Us embassies in kenya and tanzania; but in those factories medicine and toys were being produced, unlike the claims by US that there were chemical weapons.

    the year 2001 terrorists attacked US and then US invaded Afghanistan,

    the year 2003 Us invaded Iraq by claiming there was nuks...the list continues....


    tell me who is mixing the apples and pears?"

    That has absolutely nothing to do with what CC wrote, besides as casting him as a hypocrite
    I agree, but that doesn't make the observation invalid. What it doesn't answer is the point. You are right to pick him up on it, but his point is relevant to the wider discussion on the pros and cons of the debate about the Qur'an burning and subsequent unrest. How can we in the West call for appropriate and proportionate behaviour from religious zealots in Afghanistan when the world has seen the western powers behave inappropriately and disproportionately on so many occasions?

    Now, as for those twots in Mazar-e Sharif, Kabul and Florida, I think I've made myself perfectly clear earlier in this thread; they all shoulder some degree of guilt for the deaths of the UN workers. The rioters are the most guilty, they are murderers and on any sane reading of Islam, are heading to Hell. Karzai and Jones are both guilty of using religious zealotry for their own twisted ideological and political ends.
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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I agree, but that doesn't make the observation invalid.
    Isn't a logical fallacy, by it's very definition, invalid logic?


    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    What it doesn't answer is the point. You are right to pick him up on it, but his point is relevant to the wider discussion on the pros and cons of the debate about the Qur'an burning and subsequent unrest. How can we in the West call for appropriate and proportionate behaviour from religious zealots in Afghanistan when the world has seen the western powers behave inappropriately and disproportionately on so many occasions?
    because two wrongs don't make a right, and that killing random people for burning books would be wrong regardless of who does it? Also add into that I'm an individual who can, and often does, disagree with my government
    Last edited by ManofthPeephole; 04-04-11 at 08:48 AM.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    That's a perfectly valid argument. You and others are arguing how the horrible actions of the mob in Marzar-e Sharif are exacerbated by the fact that they are meting out punishment on one set of people for the actions of another. Soguks suggests that the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan and the bombings of Sudanese factories were carried out on one set of people for the actions of another. I think it's valid to point out that a certain set of double standards are being applied here. None of which detracts from the culpability of those carrying out the acts, nor is the barbarity of the acts mitigated in any way by having those double standards pointed out, so please don't think about making that claim.
    s/he cannot see the mentality behind the comments , s/he just reads the words; thats why s/he labels me ; thats ok for me , cuz it is typical of an american...when they understand the world does not revolve around them , we will not see bombs in everywhere in the world or some soldiers killing the civilians by ''mistake'' and then take picture of those killings with a smile on their faces..

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by ManofthPeephole View Post
    Isn't a logical fallacy, by it's very definition, invalid logic?
    Well, I was pretty clear that I don't believe it was a tu quoque fallacy. He wasn't refuting your argument with a claim of hypocrisy, he was avoiding answering your point by raising a separate issue.

    because two wrongs don't make a right, and that killing random people for burning books would be wrong regardless of who does it? Also add into that I'm an individual who can, and often does, disagree with my government
    I didn't read anything from Soguks that suggested he believes that killing people for burning books is justified. Are you making the claim that the behaviour of burning books is a valid form of free expression or a valid form of protest?

    Quote Originally Posted by soguks View Post
    s/he cannot see the mentality behind the comments , s/he just reads the words; thats why s/he labels me ; thats ok for me , cuz it is typical of an american...when they understand the world does not revolve around them , we will not see bombs in everywhere in the world or some soldiers killing the civilians by ''mistake'' and then take picture of those killings with a smile on their faces..
    Now you are applying the same blanket, nationalist stereotyping that you appear to be critical of other people doing. Expressions like, "typical of an American" show that you just lump together people in one easy generalisation. If they were to say, "murderous rioting is typical of Moslems", you would be rightly outraged. Can't you see how your behaviour is comparable?
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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    What Jones did was wrong, but he was within his legal rights and I support his right to burn a koran even if I don't agree with it. I'm sure these barbaric murderers burn US flags or at least support it, so how would they feel if people in America decided to murder Arabs based on what some idiots did thousands of miles away? Their minds are diseased and deranged and we can't put the blame on the pastor who acted in hatred. He was exercising his right to free speech, and in our country that means haters and morons are still allowed to have a voice that shouldn't be denied.
    What the guy did was very wrong, short sighted, in some ways selfish (as he did not consider the wider implications of his actions), and frankly, plain stupid as it accomplished very little that was positive other than stroking his own ego and the ego of his flock. It was essentially the same sort of useless activity as burning a nation's flag, an effigy, or putting a little yellow ribbon magnet on your car. The whole thing was a big "look at me!! Aren't I special!!"

    However, he is no murderer and is not evil. The reaction to the act is all on the barbaric people who chose to react the way they did. I don't care how much they revere a book or what their feelings are, it does not give them the right to kill people who had nothing to do with what some preacher did who they likely did not even know or have never heard of before. The people who did that need to be tried and brought to justice, but sadly, it will likely never happen.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post


    Now you are applying the same blanket, nationalist stereotyping that you appear to be critical of other people doing. Expressions like, "typical of an American" show that you just lump together people in one easy generalisation. If they were to say, "murderous rioting is typical of Moslems", you would be rightly outraged. Can't you see how your behaviour is comparable?
    first of all, what is the difference between USA and Iran by country and national actions?

    for example one supports terrorist groups , the other bombs and invades countries; or one is ruled by sharia , the other is ruled by democracy, but the both harass the other religion, for example it is important for people in US that whether Obama is a muslim,

    just re-read the threads in this forum to see whether there is major inclination in USA against Islam or others, if you claim i am the one who makes an easy generalisation ignoring the reality.

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