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Thread: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Once again, a situation that has many different circumstances than the one we're talking about. The psychological factors of a woman in an abusive relationship do not exist in a man who burns Korans and provokes murderers.
    No, it's not. It's the same argument in fact. You know the dude is unhinged. You know that being around him will provoke his actions of aggression against you. Yet you choose to go back into the same circumstance and force this unhinged person to act the way everyone knew he would. The only reason you want to call this different is because you don't want to place any blame on the woman who choose to remain in the environment where as here you want to blame the preacher. But this is the logical outcome of your argument, that's the end all of it. It's why your argument is at base very poor
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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Can you think of another situation that comes close to illustrating where the act of one person forced the actions of another yet the first person isn't held liable for manipulating the situation? That's the comparison I was attempting to draw. And yes, I know it seems ludicris on the surface of it, but that's pretty much what's happened here. One man did something that was so stupid, so wreckless that he forced the actions of another individual (or in this case a group of individuals) to commit an act that was far more hanous in retaliation of the first.

    Now, you and I both see the absordity of the retalitory actions Islamists took, but in their minds an American dececrated their holy book. And such an act to them cannot go unpunished. So, what does radical Islam do? Strike out against the only guilty party it could find - U.N. workers because they were the closest thing to Americans they could find. It's sad...very sad. No one is excusing what they did. But at the same time, I think most people can agree that had Pastor Jones (or any other American for that matter, but especially him since his name and face had clearly be plastered all over the news world-wide) not burned the Qu'ron, I don't think we'd be here talking about this matter today. Do you?
    How many wannabees like Pastor Jones are going to pop up after this? The ones looking for notoriety?

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by ManofthPeephole View Post
    then you're special pleading: you want your logic to only apply in select circumstances, and one'
    s where you don't agree with the content of the message
    Arguments in certain situations do not work in others. For example, one might argue that Policy A in good for Town X. Then, in order to challenge that argument, someone like you would say, "But Policy A doesn't make sense for Town Z, therefore Policy A doesn't work at all."

    That is a logical fallacy. I am applying my argument to this situation (or Town X). The MLK situation is different from this situation (just as Town Z is different from Town X).

    right, like those muslims who provoked people after 9/11, by openly practicing their religion
    Once again, your mixing up actual provocation with perceived provocation. I'm talking about the former.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It's not common sense to try to punish someone who is practicing a right because of the reactions of some nutjobs half the world away
    Again, I'm not trying to punish him. I have argued that his right to free speech should be protected. I think that he and other should admit he has a part in the cause of the violence.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No, it's not. It's the same argument in fact. You know the dude is unhinged. You know that being around him will provoke his actions of aggression against you. Yet you choose to go back into the same circumstance and force this unhinged person to act the way everyone knew he would. The only reason you want to call this different is because you don't want to place any blame on the woman who choose to remain in the environment where as here you want to blame the preacher. But this is the logical outcome of your argument, that's the end all of it. It's why your argument is at base very poor
    It is differently, actually - in the literal sense of the word different. The psychological and environmental factors present in/with the woman are not present in the pastor.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Are you saying he underestimated the ignorance of (some) Muslims?

    That seems to be the case.
    I'm saying Pastor Jones didn't care that some within the Muslim world are more protective and passionate about their religion and their holy book than he perhaps is concerning his holy book, the Bible. The only thing Pastor Jones cared about was proving that some Muslims will kill indiscriminately to defend the honor and integrity of Islam. So, in that sense, yes, he underestimated their committment to defending what they consider to be honorable and sacred. They didn't quite strike the blow they were hoping for - killing Americans - but taking the lives of 11 innocent U.N. workers to them is the next best thing. Both were wrong - the Islamists clearly moreso than Pastor Jones. Personally, I condemn the actions of both.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    If I successfully insight a person that I and others know is easy to influence, to kill someone for some benefit to my cause, I have broken the law in the US. So, apparently my freedom of speech will be abused.
    If I successfully insight a self-selected group people in Afghanistan that have stated that:
    1) they will kill,
    3) given directions on how to influence them to kill and
    3) demonstrated that they are easy to influence to kill,
    to kill I have broken no law in the US.

    Laws are an attempt to describe a process for a culture to operate with. They concern themselves with such things as freedoms. But, they canít be perfect. So, how many angels are dancing on all the pins in this thread?

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Again, I'm not trying to punish him. I have argued that his right to free speech should be protected. I think that he and other should admit he has a part in the cause of the violence.
    pl

    Exactly.

    Anyone who doesn't respect Islam or anything Muslims consider Holy can expect Muslims to murder innocent people. We should all remain silent all things Islam.

    Well put, Theplaydrive.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    I'm saying Pastor Jones didn't care that some within the Muslim world are more protective and passionate about their religion and their holy book than he perhaps is concerning his holy book, the Bible. The only thing Pastor Jones cared about was proving that some Muslims will kill indiscriminately to defend the honor and integrity of Islam. So, in that sense, yes, he underestimated their committment to defending what they consider to be honorable and sacred. They didn't quite strike the blow they were hoping for - killing Americans - but taking the lives of 11 innocent U.N. workers to them is the next best thing. Both were wrong - the Islamists clearly moreso than Pastor Jones. Personally, I condemn the actions of both.
    Yes, no one anywhere should provoke Muslims or they will murder innocent people.

    Lesson learned.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Arguments in certain situations do not work in others. For example, one might argue that Policy A in good for Town X. Then, in order to challenge that argument, someone like you would say, "But Policy A doesn't make sense for Town Z, therefore Policy A doesn't work at all."

    That is a logical fallacy. I am applying my argument to this situation (or Town X). The MLK situation is different from this situation (just as Town Z is different from Town X).


    Once again, your mixing up actual provocation with perceived provocation. I'm talking about the former.
    read up on special pleading. That's what you are doing here

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