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Thread: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Suggesting people use common sense is not trying to curb civil rights. This why your mother telling you not call a black person a nigger is not the same as her trying to curb your civil rights.

    I don't need to do anything about the civil rights movement. We're talking about a specific situation and you're trying to attack my argument with a situation that happened in a very different environment than the one we're talking about.
    holding MLK and innocent muslims accountable for the attacks against them is the logical outcome of your argument here. They they are responsible for the attacks against them because they provoked their attackers.


    Such isn't dependent on the fact that you're not logically consistent

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    What this Pastor in Florida did reminds me of the legal conflict authorities had in prosecuting Jigsaw in the SAW movie series. No, Jigsaw didn't kill anyone, but he certainly placed people in precurious positions where "it was either him or me". It's kinda the same things.
    What an idiotic statement. Shoving aside the notion that one would ever want to use the spawn of so many trite sequels for a damned metaphor, Jigsaw was in immediate proximity to alter the very survival of a human being and intentionally did so. The Paster was in no immediate proximity, had no life-altering power toward any individual, and was no evil menace to society.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 04-03-11 at 04:08 PM.
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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    What this Pastor in Florida did reminds me of the legal conflict authorities had in prosecuting Jigsaw in the SAW movie series. No, Jigsaw didn't kill anyone, but he certainly placed people in precurious positions where "it was either him or me". It's kinda the same things.

    This Pastor was cautioned last year that if he burned the Qu'ron, the Muslim world, specifically in Iraq and Afghanistan where we have a large U.S. military presence, would retaliate. He was warned that in doing so the lives of American military and coalition forces would be placed in jeapordy. He knew the likelihood that people's lives would be in danger, but he gambled with them anyway. And for what? To prove his point that radical Islamists would do anything to justify saving the honor of their sacred holy book even commit murder and use same to justify the hypocricy of American religious tolerence? Well, we already knew that didn't we? 9/11 was the proof!

    I don't know if this Pastor can be charged with murder or manslaughter or any other crime, but if he could be charged with reckless endangerment or stupidity, I'd certainly throw the book at him. Why? Because his wreckless actions in the wake of being forewarned what would happen if he carried out his deed did, in fact, cost lives. Moreover, his actions likely will cause set-backs in any progress made in Iraq and Afghanistan by U.S. and coalition forces needlessly, thereby placing innocent lives further in peril.
    Are you saying he underestimated the ignorance of (some) Muslims?

    That seems to be the case.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution



    Anyone caught drawing cartoons of Allah will be chopped in half with an axe.........

    ..........Radical Islam and The DNC have spoken.........
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    ........and it will all be the fault of the cartoonist.
    .
    .
    .

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Ignorance and the absence of intention do not imply a lack of responsibility. The purpose of my example was to make that point. You can be ignorant and lack intention and still be responsible as the driver in the example shows.

    As to your other points:
    1. It would actually be like blaming the driver for being partially responsible for the deaths of twelve people if it was common knowledge that crazy people killed twelve people every time someone ran a stop sign.
    2. People have responsibility in more situations than panic situations. For example, if a prankster calls in a bomb threat to a school, people find out about it and skip class, the prankster shares a was a cause for their choice to skip school.
    allowing guns in society means there will be a certain amount of gun crime. There will be those who abuse the right and then infringe upon the rights of others. We know this to be true. People who then own guns contribute to the gun culture and the number of guns in society. A certain percentage of those guns will be used for crime.

    Thus people who buy guns should be held responsible for gun crimes against others since they engage in a behavior they know will be abused by a certain sect of crazies in the world.

    That is your argument.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbbtx View Post
    Really? Seems to me he is the one being blamed while the real murderers are being excused.
    Then you misinterpret what people are saying about this incident. I don't think anyone is saying the Islamists are innocent here. They are NOT! But Pastor Jones did a very irresponsible thing after being warned what such an act would mean to those not only of the Muslim world, but also to those Americans and coalition forces in those Muslim countries who take the santity of their holy book far more serious than many Christians do today. Of course, Christianity has had its share of crackpots, too, i.e., the Crusades, the Salem Witch Hunts. Still, in this case, I blame Pastor Jones equally as much because he knew something like this would happen. He was forewarned by local authorities, Pentagon officials, the FBI/CIA and even the White House.

    I seriously doubt what he did could amount to something as serious as treason, but his actions certainly were wreckless and irresponsible. That's why people are so hard on him about this matter.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    We're not talking about domestic abuse, we're talking about terrorism/Islamic extremism. The former is a whole other conversation with a whole slew of different factors.
    It's the same argument. You engage in a behavior which can have bad results, but you knew those bad results at the beginning. A woman taking back an abuser is that circumstance. Why is it different? I have a feeling it's because you want to say something in the case of this preacher but do not want the logical conclusions of that argument drawn to other circumstances in which you may disagree with the implementation of that same argument.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by ManofthPeephole View Post
    holding MLK and innocent muslims accountable for the attacks against them is the logical outcome of your argument here. They they are responsible for the attacks against them because they provoked their attackers.

    Such isn't dependent on the fact that you're not logically consistent
    I don't hold MLK responsible for the same reasons I don't hold policymakers and academics responsible for their criticisms: they aren't reckless and centered around provocation.

    This my consistent argument: If someone is so unhinged that they feel the need to murder people, over speech, then you share responsibility when you provoke them.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    I seriously doubt what he did could amount to something as serious as treason, but his actions certainly were wreckless and irresponsible. That's why people are so hard on him about this matter.
    He should be more than able to be blamed had the issue merely been peaceful protests. We could still argue over proportional distress, but this is an entirely different matter. Once violence and murder became involved, let alone individuals with absolutely no connection to Mr. Jones, this notion is intellectually and morally bankrupt.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 04-03-11 at 04:17 PM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    I don't hold MLK responsible for the same reasons I don't hold policymakers and academics responsible for their criticisms: they aren't reckless and centered around provocation.

    This my consistent argument: If someone is so unhinged that they feel the need to murder people, over speech, then you share responsibility when you provoke them.
    If someone is so unhinged that they feel the need to beat their girlfriend over being there, then you share responsibility when you provoke them.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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