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Thread: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    The whole issue boils down to knowns and unknowns. If you know for a fact that your action will incite someone to violence, unless there is a larger purpose to your actions in which you think the benefits of your actions will outweigh that violence, part of the responsibility lies with you.

    If you meet a sleeping grizzly in the forest, you are entirely within your rights to poke it with a stick. But don't expect to be able to sue the bear for damages when he mauls you.
    I didn't realize poking bears with sticks was a right. In fact it may be against some kind of law.
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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by ManofthPeephole View Post
    what responsibility though? Again, is MLK responsible for the unreasonable demands and actions of racists, when he was talking about equality, or were the racists the one's responsible for their own actions
    Why are policymakers who criticize terrorism (similar to MLK's role in civil rights) different from Pastors who burn Korans? Because the policymakers don't recklessly provoke murderers and the Pastors do.

    You share responsibility when you recklessly provoke proven murderers - MLK wasn't reckless.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Why are policymakers who criticize terrorism (similar to MLK's role in civil rights) different from Pastors who burn Korans? Because the policymakers don't recklessly provoke murderers and the Pastors do.

    You share responsibility when you recklessly provoke proven murderers - MLK wasn't reckless.
    You might as well say that the woman that goes back to the dude who just beat her provokes the beating because she knows the dude is a woman beater and goes back into the situation. Thus she shares part of the blame of her own beating and the dude should be able to take her to civil court because he's in jail due to her provocation.
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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbbtx View Post
    I didn't realize poking bears with sticks was a right. In fact it may be against some kind of law.
    Well, not only that, but I don't know of any bears who react to being poked with a stick that go out and kill random people instead of the one that poked them.

    They are certainly more evolved than the things that do.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Why are policymakers who criticize terrorism (similar to MLK's role in civil rights) different from Pastors who burn Korans? Because the policymakers don't recklessly provoke murderers and the Pastors do.

    You share responsibility when you recklessly provoke proven murderers - MLK wasn't reckless.
    Burning a quran isn't reckless, the reaction of killing random people is. Speaking for equal rights isn't reckless, the response of randomly attacking black people is. If someone is so unhinged that they feel the need to murder people, over speech, then they are the sole issue here. Not the person making a harmless statement

    they have a choice to murder people, or not
    Last edited by ManofthPeephole; 04-03-11 at 03:42 PM.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    This isn't him breaking a law, like in your example. He stopped at the stop sign. It would be like blaming him for the accident which happens behind him if he stopped too long at the stop sign and pissed the person off behind him so that person decided not to stop at the stop sign. That's essentially what's going on.

    This wasn't a panic situation. He didn't incite a riot. It's not like he was preaching to a crowd and caused the crowd to explode and go on a looting frenzy. The people had plenty of time to digest the information and formulate a response. They chose their actions, they are responsible for their actions. Not the preacher, he's just some lame ass looking for some press time.
    Ignorance and the absence of intention do not imply a lack of responsibility. The purpose of my example was to make that point. You can be ignorant and lack intention and still be responsible as the driver in the example shows.

    As to your other points:
    1. It would actually be like blaming the driver for being partially responsible for the deaths of twelve people if it was common knowledge that crazy people killed twelve people every time someone ran a stop sign.
    2. People have responsibility in more situations than panic situations. For example, if a prankster calls in a bomb threat to a school, people find out about it and skip class, the prankster shares a was a cause for their choice to skip school.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    His actions were irresponsible, and he should be held to account for it. As I just said, along with rights come responsibilities. The two can't be separated.
    {sigh} let's try this. If flag burning in Afghanistan caused a fringe element in the US to go out and kill and decapitate 12 moderate Muslims who should be held accountable for those actions? Would you be calling for the Afghans to be held accountable? If you say "yes" then we will just have to agree to disagree.
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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    You might as well say that the woman that goes back to the dude who just beat her provokes the beating because she knows the dude is a woman beater and goes back into the situation. Thus she shares part of the blame of her own beating and the dude should be able to take her to civil court because he's in jail due to her provocation.
    We're not talking about domestic abuse, we're talking about terrorism/Islamic extremism. The former is a whole other conversation with a whole slew of different factors.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Ignorance and the absence of intention do not imply a lack of responsibility. The purpose of my example was to make that point. You can be ignorant and lack intention and still be responsible as the driver in the example shows.
    you're responsible, as a driver, for watching the road because you have immediate control of the vehicle. The Pastor isn't responsible for the behavior of random people he has no immediate control over

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbbtx View Post
    I didn't realize poking bears with sticks was a right. In fact it may be against some kind of law.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    Well, not only that, but I don't know of any bears who react to being poked with a stick that go out and kill random people instead of the one that poked them.

    They are certainly more evolved than the things that do.
    I'll admit it was a bad analogy. It all boils down to what degree Jones's actions can be considered provocation.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

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