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Thread: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

  1. #261
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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Reverend Jones had every right, under the first Amendment, to burn the Koran.
    [...]
    You can yell "fire" in the crowded theater, but you're responsible for the riot that ensues.
    Your argument is incoherent. Yelling fire in a crowded room is a textbook example of an act of speech that is not protected by the first amendment. So if you are comparing the two you are saying that this was not protected speech.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikeyy View Post
    I am pointing out that people like General Patraeus have condemned Jones. Why? Does the genearl not believe in his rights? Ofcourse not. The General lives in reality. He understands he has people to protect and a situation he is trying to control. Most people get that Jones is a pubixity seeker who doesn't care what sort of violence he stirs up. You like the rest of us should condemn his ignorance. It doesn't mean you are denying him his free speech.
    I do condemn him, just like I condemn flag burners, and the Felps family for their sick protests. If people go out and kill gays should the Felps be prosecuted for it somehow, or just condemned for their protests?
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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    My personal position: Jones deserves a portion of the responsibility and the blame for what happened. But I am completely against the government limiting free speech and doing anything about this.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    No one has question his right; we have questioned his stupidity and responsibility.
    you aren't exactly right-some have said he is as responsible for the deaths as the towelorists or that he should be sued



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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    No one has question his right; we have questioned his stupidity and responsibility.
    So he is stupid! i agree, but so what?

    Like i said before you can think whatever you want about the guy, but you can't press charges or arrest him whatsoever, and you shouldn't be able to.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    you aren't exactly right-some have said he is as responsible for the deaths as the towelorists or that he should be sued
    Oh - I missed those arguments. I think he has a part in the cause of it all...but it's not big enough for jail or anything. I guess people could sue him if they wanted to, but they'd probably lose.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    So he is stupid! i agree, but so what?

    Like i said before you can think whatever you want about the guy, but you can't press charges or arrest him whatsoever, and you shouldn't be able to.
    I agree with that - I don't he should be arrested, etc.. I just have a problem with his arrogant attitude and some people's claims that he doesn't even share a part in the cause of this situation.

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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    No, of course killing people because someone else burned your book is the act of irrational people. When those people are known to be irrational, when it is predictable that they will go on a killing spree as a result of burning a book, then doing so is highly irresponsible. That's what Reverend Nutter did that was wrong.



    I'm not calling for the use of government force. It is not up to the government to force someone to take responsibility for the irresponsible exercise of basic rights, and most definitely not up to them to take rights away because of irresponsibility. That is a function of the courts and the individuals who were harmed as a result of said actions.

    Were someone to make a public statement that injured me in some way, i wouldn't be calling on the government to take their rights away. I'd exercise my rights to haul his butt into civil court and answer for his actions. That is exactly what should happen to Reverend Nutter, he should be hauled into civil court and made to answer for his actions.

    He knew that burning he Koran would result in injury to others. He did it anyway. That is simply wrong.
    It is never wrong to exercise your rights. Other people are going to act irrationally and irresponsibly, but that cannot be proper argument for the restriction of our own exercise of rights. It's like saying that someone who burns the American Flag in demonstration should be liable if someone else gets pissed off and punches some other dude. But that's ridiculous. The pastor did nothing wrong, he was completely within his rights to do so. The people at fault are the one's who murdered. This isn't like shouting fire in a crowded theater. It is a reasonable response to panic in a situation where your life may be in danger, base animal response. When you shout fire and people panic and maybe people get hurt, they acted in an expected and reasonable manner by animal standards. But murdering people because they burn a book is not a reasonable response. You cannot blame the pastor for those actions. Even if one "should have known" because some of these people are less than animals. He's still not at fault, the other people had plenty of time to think and react to the situation, you're not throwing them into a panic setting.

    And Civil Court is still government force. The court system is part of government and essentially you're saying there should be repercussions for this man exercising his right. Which I do think is an irrational response.
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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayor Snorkum View Post
    You need to sort out who's responsible for what.

    Reverend Jones is responsible for releasing CO2 and water vapor, the products of combustion, and that's it.

    The crazies in Afghanistan are responsible for killing a dozen people.

    Nothing wrong with being upset about those deaths. It's silly and pointless to blame the Reverend Jones unless you can show video of Jones with the murder weapon in his hands.

    This is America. People have the freedom to engage in pointless provocation. People do not have the freedom to restrain those acts unless the acts themselves present immediate harm to others. A crazy watching a YouTube video and deciding to rush out and kill people, that's secondary harm, not immediate, and those people made independent choices to murder.

    Want to stop the crazies? Then Afganistan and the other hate filled islamic countries have to start executing their imam who preach hate and encourage actions that lead to the slaughter of innocents. The US cannot clean that up, and it should neither try to do that or try to erode American freedoms in the US to prevent further such atrocities. No one in America bears the blame for the event.
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    Re: Pastor who burned Koran demands retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    You mean like 12 people paying for the irrational action of burning a Koran when you know that it could inspire violence.
    do you not recognize what party is the problem in this equation? Burning the Quran doesn't force people to murder anyone. They did so of their own volition and had a choice not to

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