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8 killed in protest at UN office in Northern Afghanistan

theplaydrive said:
Maybe you should read more carefully before posting moronic crap like this Iron Yank.
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I find it interesting how you keep calling people moronic, yet you actually said "their cause becomes more legitimate", as if there were ever ANY legitimacy to mass murder.

Have you ever considered becoming a liberal?
 
ManofthPeephole said:
I'm sure racists made similar claims after hanging a mixed-race couple
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What's your point? Are you saying that talking about the consequences of our actions = racism? Are you saying that burning a Koran doesn't prove anti-American terrorist organizations right?
 
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Gardener said:
I find it interesting how you keep calling people moronic, yet you actually said "their cause becomes more legitimate", as if there were ever ANY legitimacy to mass murder.

Have you ever considered becoming a liberal?
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1. I haven't called anyone moronic, I've called their posts moronic.
2. By legitimate, I mean legitimate to them and other Muslims who they are trying to recruit (i.e. when we don't burn Korans, their claims that Americans hate Muslims aren't legitimate at all; when we do burn Korans, their claims are more legitimate because burning a Koran is a show of the hatred they claim that we have)
 
theplaydrive said:
1. I haven't called anyone moronic, I've called their posts moronic.
2. By legitimate, I mean legitimate to them and other Muslims who they are trying to recruit (i.e. when we don't burn Korans, their claims that Americans hate Muslims aren't legitimate at all; when we do burn Korans, their claims are more legitimate because burning a Koran is a show of the hatred they claim that we have)
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If you only showed the same level of outrage over the actual killings as you do the burning of the book, you might get somewhere.

As is, you are fussing over the tom cat pooping in your flower bed right after the saber toothed tiger ate your family.
 
Gardener said:
If you only showed the same level of outrage over the actual killings as you do the burning of the book, you might get somewhere.

As is, you are fussing over the tom cat pooping in your flower bed right after the saber toothed tiger ate your family.
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I haven't showed outrage at the burning of the book. I've showed outrage at people with poor reading comphrension.

Nonetheless, I'm the type of person who looks at the whole picture and isn't afraid to take responsibility for my actions. As a result, I'm not afraid to attribute responsibility to my fellow Americans whose actions add fuel to the fire. You don't taunt Charles Mason so why would you taunt al-Qaeda?

You seem to be caught up in the myth that you can only blame one side or the other. Good luck with that. I'm not playing that game.

EDIT: It's telling that you can't debate my actual arguments. Your only strategy is to go after me personally.
 
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theplaydrive said:
I haven't showed outrage at the burning of the book. I've showed outrage at people with poor reading comphrension.

Nonetheless, I'm the type of person who looks at the whole picture and isn't afraid to take responsibility for my actions. As a result, I'm not afraid to attribute responsibility to my fellow Americans whose actions add fuel to the fire. You don't taunt Charles Mason so why would you taunt al-Qaeda?

You seem to be caught up in the myth that you can only blame one side or the other. Good luck with that. I'm not playing that game.

EDIT: It's telling that you can't debate my actual arguments. Your only strategy is to go after me personally.
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What I am responding to is your knee jerk reaction which takes the form of transferring responsibility for the action away from the perpetrators and on to an external source. The "blame us before blaming them" approach is certainly predictable among many apologists who are so overly concerned with cultural self-blame that they cannot see the big picture. The reflexive need to condemn actions arising in the west in order to act as apologist for Islamist attrocities is evident in your legitimizing the mass murders like you did, and the matter isn't that one can only "blame one side or another, it's that you have focused on assigning blame on the trivial rather than on the essential.

As far as the contention of going after you personally, I would remind you that when you come at people with accusations of being moronic, you aren't exactly playing with kid gloves, yourself. I will repeat the invitation to embrace liberalism, however, just in case the possiblity exists that you might do so.
 
Gardener said:
What I am responding to is your knee jerk reaction which takes the form of transferring responsibility for the action away from the perpetrators and on to an external source. The "blame us before blaming them" approach is certainly predictable among many apologists who are so overly concerned with cultural self-blame that they cannot see the big picture. The reflexive need to condemn actions arising in the west in order to act as apologist for Islamist attrocities is evident in your legitimizing the mass murders like you did, and the matter isn't that one can only "blame one side or another, it's that you have focused on assigning blame on the trivial rather than on the essential.

As far as the contention of going after you personally, I would remind you that when you come at people with accusations of being moronic, you aren't exactly playing with kid gloves, yourself. I will repeat the invitation to embrace liberalism, however, just in case the possiblity exists that you might do so.
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What you don't seem to understand is that I haven't transferred responsibility. I hold both parties responsible for their actions and the effects of their actions. The reason I have focused on the book burner is because that is the part 1. People keep harping on. 2. Many people are ignoring.

There are people who are crazy enough to kill others because someone has burned a book - we've known this for a long time. Therefore, it is stupid to go ahead and burn the book they hold in highest esteem when you know that such actions piss off such crazy murderous people.

You are not acknowledging that it is unwise and dangerous to taunt crazy terrorists and murderers - which is exactly what burning a Koran is doing.

Acknowledging that it is stupid and dangerous to taunt murderers =/= being an apologist.
 
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I have seen willfull ignorance......but this takes the cake........

PeteEU said:
Hope someone sues/arrests Terry Jones. He is the direct cause of these deaths. He is the one that shouted "FIRE!" in a closed space and people got killed trying to get out.
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Its probably a good idea for Democrats to take a couple days off from defending Radical Islam--The Only Religon ever Defended by The Left.........

......let this blow over......and then resume blaming cartoonists who depict Allah, Preachers who burn Korans, and above all else.......Americans who stand up for Freedom.
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Andalublue said:
They are as moronic as those who think book burning is the way to a peaceful and harmonious society. Equally so.
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the book burning didn't harm anyone and was the man's constitutional right.

Sorry, if criticism of your religion elicits a response of killing random people, I would say the critic wasn't the problem here
 
theplaydrive said:
What's your point? Are you saying that talking about the consequences of our actions = racism? Are you saying that burning a Koran doesn't prove anti-American terrorist organizations right?
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earlier you wrote "If morons in this country didn't walk around burning Korans and proving Islamic extremists right (who claim that the U.S. hates Muslims), some of this stuff could be avoided. "

I am pointing out "if swarthy people could just keep their hands off the women racists identify as their own, and proving the racists right, some of this stuff could be avoided. "

The point is, that no one need to respect the holy objects of another, and that such a demand points to issues with the offended (because the demand is completely unreasonable to begin with). Also, such acts of disrespect, to a chunk of wood pulp, could never justify murdering random people, that had absolutely nothing to do with the act in question
 
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theplaydrive said:
What you don't seem to understand is that I haven't transferred responsibility. I hold both parties responsible for their actions and the effects of their actions. The reason I have focused on the book burner is because that is the part 1. People keep harping on. 2. Many people are ignoring.

There are people who are crazy enough to kill others because someone has burned a book - we've known this for a long time. Therefore, it is stupid to go ahead and burn the book they hold in highest esteem when you know that such actions piss off such crazy murderous people.

You are not acknowledging that it is unwise and dangerous to taunt crazy terrorists and murderers - which is exactly what burning a Koran is doing.

Acknowledging that it is stupid and dangerous to taunt murderers =/= being an apologist.
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So all those people the Klan murdered, over the years, because they were critical of the organization, or disrespecting it's wishes, were asking for it?
 
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ManofthPeephole said:
So all those people the Klan murdered, over the years, because they were critical of the organization, or disrespecting it's wishes, were asking for it?
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When did I talk about the Klan?

I'll repeat my claim: It is stupid and dangerous to mock/taunt murderers and terrorists who we already know are capable of killing people for such actions. Do you disagree?
 
This guy Terry Jones is a moron. What bugs me is that he won't even take responsability for anything. He wanted to start trouble or he wouldn't have done it and now he has. This isn't an excuse for those who did the killing but to me it's like tweeking an insane person until they go off. It wasn't needed. But it's all about him and him getting his way. I would suggest he go to Afghanistan the next time he wants to pull this stunt and take the heat himself.
 
theplaydrive said:
When did I talk about the Klan?

I'll repeat my claim: It is stupid and dangerous to mock/taunt murderers and terrorists who we already know are capable of killing people for such actions. Do you disagree?
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right, like the klan. So all those people who were killed by the klan died from their own stupidity, according to you
 
ManofthPeephole said:
earlier you wrote "If morons in this country didn't walk around burning Korans and proving Islamic extremists right (who claim that the U.S. hates Muslims), some of this stuff could be avoided. "

I am pointing out "if swarthy people could just keep their hands off the women racists identify as their own, and proving the racists right, some of this stuff could be avoided. "

The point is, that no one need to respect the holy objects of another, and that such a demand points to issues with the offended (because the demand is completely unreasonable to begin with). Also, such acts of disrespect, to a chunk of wood pulp, could never justify murdering random people, that had absolutely nothing to do with the act in question
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Two different situations.
1. If morons didn't walk around burning Korans, SOME of this stuff COULD be avoided. This is true.
2. The point is - it's stupid and dangerous to mock/taunt proven murderers and terrorists. It would be just as stupid for an interracial couple to mock proven KKK murderers. Being an interracial couple is not comparable to burning a Koran.

Interracial couple = being American - some violence towards both is motivated just by being who you are
Interracial couple having sex in front of KKK members = Burning a Koran for radical Muslims to see - some violence towards both is motivated by provocation (provoking is stupid)
 
ManofthPeephole said:
right, like the klan. So all those people who were killed by the klan died from their own stupidity, according to you
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Obviously not. If an interracial couple had sex in front of Klan members on purpose then their actions are comparable to Americans burning the Koran for radical Muslims to see. Just being who you are is not stupid and dangerous - provoking people is stupid and dangerous.
 
theplaydrive said:
Two different situations.
1. If morons didn't walk around burning Korans, SOME of this stuff COULD be avoided. This is true.
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right, like mixed race couples upsetting racists and causing violence against themselves. Sure they have a right, but that doesn't mena they should do it, especially if it's going to upset the violent racists, right?


theplaydrive said:
2. The point is - it's stupid and dangerous to mock/taunt proven murderers and terrorists. It would be just as stupid for an interracial couple to mock proven KKK murderers. Being an interracial couple is not comparable to burning a Koran.
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Both are completely reasonable and legal rights that some find inherently offensive. But what you're suggesting is that people curb reasonable rights, because the reaction of the unreasonable

theplaydrive said:
Interracial couple = being American - some violence towards both is motivated just by being who you are
Interracial couple having sex in front of KKK members = Burning a Koran for radical Muslims to see - some violence towards both is motivated by provocation (provoking is stupid)
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the right to be critical of reigion = being american.
 
theplaydrive said:
Obviously not. If an interracial couple had sex in front of Klan members on purpose then their actions are comparable to Americans burning the Koran for radical Muslims to see. Just being who you are is not stupid and dangerous - provoking people is stupid and dangerous.
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interracial couples simply existing is seen as provocative to racists (and in your mind such would make them at fault for any violence directed at them). They don't need to have sex in front of them for that. Also, the man burned the Quran in the US, not in front of the angry mob that killed random people

PS also your explanation blames anyone who was critical of the klan for the violence that organization leveled at them. Since, in your words, they were taunting the klan
 
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ManofthPeephole said:
right, like mixed race couples upsetting racists and causing violence against themselves. Sure they have a right, but that doesn't mena they should do it, especially if it's going to upset the violent racists, right?

Both are completely reasonable and legal rights that some find inherently offensive. But what you're suggesting is that people curb reasonable rights, because the reaction of the unreasonable

the right to be critical of reigion = being american.
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I never said nor implied that rights should be taken away. In fact, I have stated the opposite. In other words, we both agree that people have the right to free speech. I have criticized people's stupid and dangerous use of these rights. I have ONLY called into question the consequences of taunting terrorists and murderers. Your straw man has nothing to do with my argument.
 
theplaydrive said:
I never said nor implied that rights should be taken away. In fact, I have stated the opposite. In other words, we both agree that people have the right to free speech.
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No, you implied that people should self censor, due to the possible reaction of groups like the klan, or radical islamists


theplaydrive said:
I have criticized people's stupid and dangerous use of these rights.
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right, like all those stupid people who were critical of the klan


theplaydrive said:
I have ONLY called into question the consequences of taunting terrorists and murderers. Your straw man has nothing to do with my argument.
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right like all those "stupid" people who taunted the klan. And it isn't a straw man, it's a direct application of your, erm, "logic". According to you, they were at fault for not respecting the unreasonable demands of the klan. To you, the people who were murdered by the Klan were at fault for a adopting a principled position
 
theplaydrive said:
Must be a problem with terrorists/radical Muslims, more than anything else. Yes?
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I can agree with that. Since when do we give a rat's ass about terrorists's feelings?
 
ManofthPeephole said:
interracial couples simply existing is seen as provocative to racists
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I agree. Just as being American is seen as provocative to anti-American terrorists. Unfortunately, I'm not talking about who we are - I'm talking about what we do.

(and in your mind such would make them at fault for any violence directed at them).
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Nope. Stop projecting. Never said it, never implied it.

They don't need to have sex in front of them for that. Also, the man burned the Quran in the US, not in front of the angry mob that killed random people.
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The similarity is in the fact that one goes out of their way to taunt murderers. Interracial couples just being together is not them going out of their way to taunt racists just as Americans just being Americans is not going out of their way to taunt murderers. The other situations are going out of your way to taunt people.
 
theplaydrive said:
When did I talk about the Klan?

I'll repeat my claim: It is stupid and dangerous to mock/taunt murderers and terrorists who we already know are capable of killing people for such actions. Do you disagree?
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Yes, I disagree. If we don't challenge them, we can never defeat them. It sounds as if they've already got you intimidated into submission.
 
ManofthPeephole said:
No, you implied that people should self censor, due to the possible reaction of groups like the klan, or radical islamists
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I personally wouldn't go burning Korans all over the place, but you go ahead if you think that's smart...

right, like all those stupid people who were critical of the klan
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Being critical of terrorism is not the same thing as burning a Koran...for many reasons.

right like all those "stupid" people who taunted the klan. And it isn't a straw man, it's a direct application of your, erm, "logic". According to you, they were at fault for not respecting the unreasonable demands of the klan. To you, the people who were murdered by the Klan were at fault for a adopting a principled position
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Nope, straw man again. I never made nor implied that argument. Being critical of the Klan is not the same as taunting them. Being critical of terrorism is not the same as taunting terrorists.
 
apdst said:
Yes, I disagree. If we don't challenge them, we can never defeat them. It sounds as if they've already got you intimidated into submission.
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Nope. Being critical of terrorism is not the same as taunting terrorists.

Military strategists who criticize terrorism don't ever seem to tell soldiers to taunt terrorists - there is the difference. Criticism vs. Taunting. I support the former.
 
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