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Thread: 8 killed in protest at UN office in Northern Afghanistan

  1. #171
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    Re: 8 killed in protest at UN office in Northern Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    You know, I can see why the reverend burned the book. He thinks Islam is evil, and he wanted to show the world that. Judging from the reaction in Afghanistan, I think he helped his cause famously. And it certainly magnified him well beyond his significance. But what was Karzai's excuse for not following the lead of international media and showing a little discretion in publicizing the burning? He certainly had to know how incendiary this would be in Afghanistan and that this would put the lives of Westerners in the country at risk. Was he playing fast and loose with the lives of foreigners for some cynical political purpose?
    He probably was. From my perspective, he wanted to create a firestorm that villainized the United States and ignited his people against us - he succeeded in doing that to a certain extent just as the reverend succeeded, to a certain extent, in getting the reaction he wanted. In the end, I think every person should be held accountable (in word not necessarily in law) for their role in these killings. The pastor, Karzai and the murderers were all causes of this situation - none of them should be let off the hook.

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    Re: 8 killed in protest at UN office in Northern Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Nothing can justify the cycle of violent behaviour engaged by the rioters, Karzai and the Rev. Jones. Jones burned the Qur'an in the full knowledge that some hyped-up, stirred up extremist somewhere would react in the way the mob in Mazar-e Sharif did. That is culpable incitement.

    Karzai used the fact of the Qur'an burning and the febrile state of popular feeling to incite the taking of some action against foreigners in Afghanistan. He is also culpable for those deaths that would not have happened had he not brought greater attention to the Rev. Jones' actions.

    The mob that carried out the attacks is directly responsible for the deaths. Their inability to maintain order and perspective is one of the central truths as to why Afghanistan has never known prolonged periods of peace and prosperity. Tribal enmities and jealousies, religious fanaticism and a deficit of legitimacy for central authority have in the past and continue to do for any attempts to develop a peaceful political culture.

    You may think that burning books is, and should be legal and uncontroversial; that it is merely a valid expression of free will. The relatively recent history of the act of book burning should tell you that it is a stepping stone to the destruction of the freedom of expression, that it is just a few more rednecked pastors away from the curtailment of the freedom of writers to write and publishers to publish whatever their consciences dictate. Book burning is not an expression of free speech but a signal of the ending of that freedom.
    Only when the government does it. Like when public libraries ban books that aren't politically correct, such as Tom Sawyer, or Uncle Remus, because they--gasp--the word nigger is in them.

    When a private citizen burns a book, it's definitely freedom of expression.

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    Re: 8 killed in protest at UN office in Northern Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikeyy View Post
    So you are in agreement with Jones's actions. That is what I wanted to know. That you would have burned one with him.
    Oh, Mikeyy, you're such a dull slouch. Please quote for me where I said I agree with the man

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    Re: 8 killed in protest at UN office in Northern Afghanistan

    1 - Acting like savages and killing people who were over there trying to better that place...biting the hand that feeds them.

    2 - These sub par humans made a concious choice to resort to mob mentality and act like zombies not rational human beings.

    And finally... Dont belive for one milisecond that if we dance to the tune of their music that they are playing, the violence will minimized or they will suddenly understand and embrace us as equals and we will all become soulmates


    This will NEVER, EVER happen.

    The more we give in, the more these savages will demand we give

    Lets draw the line in the sand and be done with it

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    Re: 8 killed in protest at UN office in Northern Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    I do believe you should distinguish between said activity when conducted by an individual and when conducted by a state or multi-state institution.
    When the end is the same, the person performing the act is irrelevant. The intention in burning books is to stifle dissenting opinion, and it makes no difference whether it is a state, private or religious organisation attempting to limit that dissent.

    Your notion that it is necessary to prevent the exercize of free speech for some in order to foster free speech
    That would be YOUR notion, not mine. I haven't suggested such limitation, nor do I believe in it, even for the book burning Christofascists or Islamofascists.

    but in failing to distinguish between the actions of an individual and the actions of a state, you fail to understand the essential nature of the actual rights involved.
    Your focus on differentiating the actions of public bodies from those of private bodies, individuals, religious groups and corporations displays a conservative bent but no logical rationale. A fanatical pastor burning books has the same intent as the state-sponsored burning of books. The only difference is in the likelihood of a successful outcome. I have no idea whether you are trying to invoke US constititutional principles in your argument by suggesting I am failing to understand the nature of the rights involved. If so, please save your breath because, while the Rev Jones might be covered by such constitutional considerations, I couldn't give a stuff. His constitutional right to attempt to snuff out alternative belief systems is irrelevant.
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    Re: 8 killed in protest at UN office in Northern Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    When the end is the same, the person performing the act is irrelevant. The intention in burning books is to stifle dissenting opinion, and it makes no difference whether it is a state, private or religious organisation attempting to limit that dissent.

    That would be YOUR notion, not mine. I haven't suggested such limitation, nor do I believe in it, even for the book burning Christofascists or Islamofascists.


    Your focus on differentiating the actions of public bodies from those of private bodies, individuals, religious groups and corporations displays a conservative bent but no logical rationale. A fanatical pastor burning books has the same intent as the state-sponsored burning of books. The only difference is in the likelihood of a successful outcome. I have no idea whether you are trying to invoke US constititutional principles in your argument by suggesting I am failing to understand the nature of the rights involved. If so, please save your breath because, while the Rev Jones might be covered by such constitutional considerations, I couldn't give a stuff. His constitutional right to attempt to snuff out alternative belief systems is irrelevant.
    By that logic, any protest would be illegal.

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    Re: 8 killed in protest at UN office in Northern Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Your focus on differentiating the actions of public bodies from those of private bodies, individuals, religious groups and corporations displays a conservative bent but no logical rationale.

    You have it backwards -- it displays a logical orientation, but not a conservative bent.

    But good attempt at fooling 'em!
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    Re: 8 killed in protest at UN office in Northern Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Your focus on differentiating the actions of public bodies from those of private bodies, individuals, religious groups and corporations displays a conservative bent but no logical rationale. A fanatical pastor burning books has the same intent as the state-sponsored burning of books. The only difference is in the likelihood of a successful outcome. I have no idea whether you are trying to invoke US constititutional principles in your argument by suggesting I am failing to understand the nature of the rights involved. If so, please save your breath because, while the Rev Jones might be covered by such constitutional considerations, I couldn't give a stuff. His constitutional right to attempt to snuff out alternative belief systems is irrelevant.
    The reason you're wrong, is because an individual can only violate another individual's rights by physical means. The government has many ways, such as legislation, to violate people's rights.

    Had Jones stolen that book and burned it, only then would be be violating anyone's rights. Besides, he only burned one copy of a book. He didn't burn them all, nor did he pass a law outlawing the book.

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    Re: 8 killed in protest at UN office in Northern Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    You have it backwards -- it displays a logical orientation, but not a conservative bent.

    But good attempt at fooling 'em!
    I'd like to say, "good attempt at justifying your logical dysfunction", but I can't. It was a very half-hearted, failed attempt.
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    Re: 8 killed in protest at UN office in Northern Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I'd like to say,
    I'm sure you would like to say many things, Anda, but by characterizing the intelligence necessary to discern one thing from another as a "conservative" charasteric, you not only cede an awful lot of territory to this imagined conservatism of yours, but you place yourself on the opposite side of it. What is politics, itself, if not the detailing of the relationship between the individual and the state?
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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