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Thread: 8 killed in protest at UN office in Northern Afghanistan

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    Re: 8 killed in protest at UN office in Northern Afghanistan

    One more thing. I hadn't even heard that the reverend had burned the Koran until after this attack on the UN. Apparently, neither had most of the population of Afghanistan until President Karzai went off on a rant about it in a national speech. If anyone's guilty of stupidity or being a moron, it's Karzai. Maybe he's the one who should be arrested.
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    Re: 8 killed in protest at UN office in Northern Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Did you seriously reply to me without reading the FIRST line of my post? Are you kidding? Let me repost it for you with highlights:



    In other words, I'm not arguing that we should change our laws, I'm arguing that people should stop doing stupid things with our laws.

    As far as what "they want us to do": I can assure that burning a Koran is one of those things as it just strengthens their argument that the U.S. is full of bigoted people who hate Muslims.
    Would you explain scientifically "doing stupid things with our laws". Who are those people who would decide if people are doing stupid things with laws or not? I think it is subjective. If it is within the law it is O.K. If it is not it, is not. From this thread I have learned that opinions differ.
    Last edited by grig; 04-03-11 at 07:10 AM.

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    Re: 8 killed in protest at UN office in Northern Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by grig View Post
    Would you explain scientifically "doing stupid things with our laws". Who are those people who would decide if people are doing stupid things with laws or not? I think it is subjective. If it is within the law it is O.K. If it is not it, is not. From this thread I have learned that opinions differ.
    Using freedom of speech to provoke murderers.

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    Re: 8 killed in protest at UN office in Northern Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    Yelling fire in a crowded theatre comparison? More like he yelled "this movie sucks" in a theatre and the films director and his pals went on a killing spree of completely unrelated people in a different country.

    There is something sick about the culture in Afghanistan and engagement in that part of the world isn't changing any of it.
    I think there something demonic and sick about the muslims that live in the ME, and run around screaming "Death to America" because one person burn a book. Frankly it kind of pisses me off. If we did what they did scaled to the size of our country and population, we'd have dropped a hydrogen bomb on them.
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    Re: 8 killed in protest at UN office in Northern Afghanistan

    So you are in agreement with Jones's actions. That is what I wanted to know. That you would have burned one with him.
    Quote Originally Posted by ManofthPeephole View Post
    I just wrote what I thought, and then added the perspective of some people I know. So I'm not sure what you are complaining about

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    Re: 8 killed in protest at UN office in Northern Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikeyy View Post
    So you are in agreement with Jones's actions. That is what I wanted to know. That you would have burned one with him.
    Since he never said anything like that, you conclude that this must be his position, eh?


    Does this mean you support some subhumans murdering innocent people because some idiot burned a book?
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    Re: 8 killed in protest at UN office in Northern Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Using freedom of speech to provoke murderers.
    You know, I can see why the reverend burned the book. He thinks Islam is evil, and he wanted to show the world that. Judging from the reaction in Afghanistan, I think he helped his cause famously. And it certainly magnified him well beyond his significance. But what was Karzai's excuse for not following the lead of international media and showing a little discretion in publicizing the burning? He certainly had to know how incendiary this would be in Afghanistan and that this would put the lives of Westerners in the country at risk. Was he playing fast and loose with the lives of foreigners for some cynical political purpose?
    Last edited by Ahlevah; 04-03-11 at 11:21 AM.
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    Re: 8 killed in protest at UN office in Northern Afghanistan

    Nothing can justify the cycle of violent behaviour engaged by the rioters, Karzai and the Rev. Jones. Jones burned the Qur'an in the full knowledge that some hyped-up, stirred up extremist somewhere would react in the way the mob in Mazar-e Sharif did. That is culpable incitement.

    Karzai used the fact of the Qur'an burning and the febrile state of popular feeling to incite the taking of some action against foreigners in Afghanistan. He is also culpable for those deaths that would not have happened had he not brought greater attention to the Rev. Jones' actions.

    The mob that carried out the attacks is directly responsible for the deaths. Their inability to maintain order and perspective is one of the central truths as to why Afghanistan has never known prolonged periods of peace and prosperity. Tribal enmities and jealousies, religious fanaticism and a deficit of legitimacy for central authority have in the past and continue to do for any attempts to develop a peaceful political culture.

    You may think that burning books is, and should be legal and uncontroversial; that it is merely a valid expression of free will. The relatively recent history of the act of book burning should tell you that it is a stepping stone to the destruction of the freedom of expression, that it is just a few more rednecked pastors away from the curtailment of the freedom of writers to write and publishers to publish whatever their consciences dictate. Book burning is not an expression of free speech but a signal of the ending of that freedom.
    Last edited by Andalublue; 04-03-11 at 11:22 AM.
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    Re: 8 killed in protest at UN office in Northern Afghanistan

    Problem is nobody wants to condemn his action straight out when they should. I think the murderers are medieval in their thinking. They believe when they murder people they are doing it to avenge god. Jones burned the Koran because he wanted to make them angry. He knew that would be the result. So his right to do it aside Jones never considered he may put people in harms way by his actions and now won't accept responsibility for stirring it up. Jones did what he did also to have a dig and peaceful followers of Islam. I think he hopes to stir a religious war. But simply wants to be an instigator from the sidelines without the guts to go do this in a Muslim country. He hides behind the rights fought and died for by others including Muslims to stir a war he has little guts to fight himself. He is anti American and a coward. I wouldn't give you two cents for the guy or his following because it isn't about his rights it's about being American and showing some respect for others beliefs. And I don't mean the medieval nutcases in Afghanistan. I mean the peaceful Muslims who shouldn't have had their book desecrated to serve some nutcase preachers arrogant and selfish bigoted whims. Jones should be condemned. It's not an either or situation. The Afghans were wrong and so was Jones.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    Since he never said anything like that, you conclude that this must be his position, eh?


    Does this mean you support some subhumans murdering innocent people because some idiot burned a book?
    Last edited by Mikeyy; 04-03-11 at 11:41 AM.

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    Re: 8 killed in protest at UN office in Northern Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post

    You may think that burning books is, and should be legal and uncontroversial; that it is merely a valid expression of free will. The relatively recent history of the act of book burning should tell you that it is a stepping stone to the destruction of the freedom of expression, that it is just a few more rednecked pastors away from the curtailment of the freedom of writers to write and publishers to publish whatever their consciences dictate. Book burning is not an expression of free speech but a signal of the ending of that freedom.

    I do believe you should distinguish between said activity when conducted by an individual and when conducted by a state or multi-state institution. The actual signal of the ending of free speech is when these states and multi-state institutions act to limit the expressions of free speech by an individual.

    To give an example, there has been a movement within the United Nations to characterize the criticism of Islam as an act of bigotry that should not be tolerated. Indeed, within much of Islam, such criticism is not only forbidden, but in many cases punishable by rather severe means. The meme being promoted here is the conflation of the criticism of an ideology with an irrational bigotry, fostered currently in various sub-communities here in the west through various disincentives that take the form of social ostracism -- the scorn of political correctness acting to limit the ability to voice such criticism. As of now, there is no real infringement of free speech here in America, however, since the state does not act to prevent the expression of such criticism.

    You notion that it is necessary to prevent the exercize of free speech for some in order to foster free speech is certainly a contradiction shared by many in Britain, but in failing to distinguish between the actions of an individual and the actions of a state, you fail to understand the essential nature of the actual rights involved.
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