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Thread: The President's Speech on Libya

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    Re: The President's Speech on Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    I claim the badge-of-honor of being a Neocon. This is not so much for domestic reasons, although I think there is some overlap. I am firmly fiscally conservative, but I also feel government has a big role to play in development of the country. I just happen to feel that entitlements, which are necessary, must be the purview of state and local government, not federal government. I am totally socially liberal, as far as government attempts to restrict abortion, gay marriage and the like. So, I really am unsure whether I fit domestic policy of Neocons.

    It is the foreign policy of some Neocons, and when the term was used for people in support of the Iraq war, was when I said, sure, I'm a Neocon, with pride.

    So here you list three things that I totally agree with, although I am a little confused with what you are really saying in point three. I think you are saying that international organizations are completely useless, but you may be saying Neocons are skeptical that they are useless.

    • Consistently speak and act with the mindset of a hawk - hell yes. We spend all this money to project power anywhere in the globe and with regards to those countries that don't respect that power, whether they are bad actors, or whether they are in bed with bad actors, we need to set the record straight. Doesn't mean we will act unilaterally if we can build a coalition, but we c an if we need to.
    • Wilsonian in ideal - damn right. We need to act on principle and stop supporting bad actors cause they control things which we have interests: oil, Suez/Panama Canal, shipping lanes. In fact, we should focus on promoting our ideals with the very countries that hold our interests, and thus combine our idealism and our realism.
    • Skeptical of the complete usefulness of international organizations like the UN - now I think this is saying that the UN is useful, at least partially. The hell with the UN, I say. Between the population of dictatorships and other forms of autocracies and failed states having majority domination in the General Assembly (and the Human Rights Council, etc) and then those countries on the Security Council who are opposed to a hawkish spreading of Democracy, like Russia and China, the UN is a snake pit. I appreciate much more the idea of forming an Organization of Democratic States to spread democracy and act preemptively with political, diplomatic, economic and military power. I believe in selective international organizations.
    On your last point, neoconservatives grumble about the UN, but they ultimately see its usefulness. It is but one of many avenues in which they perceive they can influence world affairs (yes, including other international organizations like NATO, etc. that may be more useful for American interests). As Moynihan once said (paraphrase) regarding his confrontations at the UN, "It is where the world meets. Do you want to pull out of the world?"
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  2. #152
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    Re: The President's Speech on Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    I know it was meant to be a dig, but just in case...

    Think of it as being a slur against so called hawkish Jews. The ones in America who believe in showcasing American might on the world stage at the same time as believing it in the best interests of the United States to be firmly tied to Israel and defend it vigilantly. Those Jews can get picked on, and while there is a disproportionate amount of Jews being labeled as neoconservatives, much of the neoconservative identity also lay with those who are not Jewish, or in the case of one who is Jewish, but it took a protestant to give him the feeling that Israel was such a vital ally.
    but i'm a lib who believes israel is a vital ally. if jews are being labeled neocons, isn't that because of their politics? i guess i never thought about the names i see associated with neoconservatism. it didn't matter me to what religion they were.

    edit: i believe the people around bush who pushed for the iraq war were idiots, no matter how you tag them.
    Last edited by liblady; 03-31-11 at 02:37 PM.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


  3. #153
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    Re: The President's Speech on Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Isolationism, as you state, is certainly not a creed by neoconservatives.
    i said the exact opposite

    no problem

  4. #154
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    Re: The President's Speech on Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    but i'm a lib who believes israel is a vital ally. if jews are being labeled neocons, isn't that because of their politics? i guess i never thought about the names i see associated with neoconservatism. it didn't matter me to what religion they were.

    edit: i believe the people around bush who pushed for the iraq war were idiots, no matter how you tag them.
    Well, that is what I discussed. American "might" on the world stage, hawkish politics, and a vigilant defense of Israel. Those characteristics matched with being Jewish will frequently be called it, but the focus (with the idea that the word neocon is a slur) would be on the accusation of "Dual Loyalty" or rather, American blood for Israel or Israel over US interests, Israel over human interests, and so forth. Being Jewish then becomes associated with anti-semitism....and you can then see where people can get sensitive about being labeled that way.

    And Prof, both of us were in agreement, it is just that when I said "as you state", I meant to concur with you but did not make that clear.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 03-31-11 at 02:44 PM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: The President's Speech on Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Well, that is what I discussed. American "might" on the world stage, hawkish politics, and a vigilant defense of Israel. Those characteristics matched with being Jewish will frequently be called it, but the focus would be on the accusation of "Dual Loyalty" or rather, American blood for Israel or Israel over US interests, Israel over human interests, and so forth. Being Jewish then becomes associated with anti-semitism....and you can then see where people can get sensitive about being labeled that way.

    And Prof, both of us were in agreement, it is just that when I said "as you state", I meant to concur with you but did not make that clear.
    i guess so, but i never intended it to be.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


  6. #156
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    Re: The President's Speech on Libya

    If you think I accused you of something, do not think so. I used your initial post to then discuss the slur aspect, just in case you or others were thinking it would be interesting or literally had no idea that neocon is sometimes used as such a slur.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 03-31-11 at 02:49 PM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: The President's Speech on Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    If you think I accused you of something, do not think so. I used your initial post to then discuss the slur aspect, just in case you or others were thinking it would be interesting or literally had no idea that neocon is sometimes used as such a slur.
    ok.......i thought you meant me when when you posted "dig".......

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: The President's Speech on Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    ok.......i thought you meant me when when you posted "dig".......
    Well, what I meant was I thought you meant to make a political dig against those whom you completely disagreed with. And then I had the sense that just in case it would somehow be interesting or new information, I was going to elaborate on the exact nature of that other person's post.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 03-31-11 at 02:57 PM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: The President's Speech on Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Mars View Post
    I didnít watch the Presidentís speech last night I read a copy of the text today.
    In summary:





    .
    The Clintons are what happens...
    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

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