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Thread: The President's Speech on Libya

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    Re: The President's Speech on Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Try to think of it as Obama needing to be both 1) Consistently speak and act with the mindset of a hawk 2) Wilsonian in ideal.
    I'm not trying to be difficult but that would apply to lots of people who would consider being called a neocon an insult.
    The national security of the United States can never be left in the hands of liberals.

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    Re: The President's Speech on Libya

    You aren't being difficult. I'm trying to think of good ways to simplify some of it after trying to go into some of the nuances.

    You are absolutely correct. From its first modern usage it was completely used as an insult. The term continues to do so. However, there is a degree of consistency to make it somewhat silly for me to be able to dismiss it.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 03-31-11 at 01:42 PM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: The President's Speech on Libya

    a neocon is generally a republican who advocates an activist foreign policy, especially in the middle east, in contrast to the isolationist and america-first dispositions of his more genghis con brethren, the paleo's

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    Re: The President's Speech on Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    a neocon is generally a republican who advocates an activist foreign policy, especially in the middle east, in contrast to the isolationist and america-first dispositions of his more genghis con brethren, the paleo's
    Sort of, sort of not. Recall some of the past, which included many Democrats, and still includes big-name Democrats or big names who are Democrat. The middle east was a concern that developed over the past decade and decade and a half, because of a sensibility of where attention could now be applied by the United States. Other areas included Asia and still desired to keep an eye on eastern Europe, lest the Russians yet again act in contrary to American or so-called democratic interests. Isolationism, as you state, is certainly not a creed by neoconservatives.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: The President's Speech on Libya

    Ok, I'll jump.....

    It's all about context and the intent of those who use the term. When some people use the term "NeoCon", they do indeed mean it as a slur, and as a means to reference Jews.

    Just as it is all about the "intent" of those who go overseas to initiate talks with whatever country.
    If your motives are pure, and your desire is to simply talk -no ****ing problem, but if the purpose of your trip to whatever country, is to undermine the Foreign Policy of an Administration, with the ultimate goal being that of electoral victory...

    ...well, then we have a different story altogether.

    There's a word for someone who would damage the security of their Nation in exchange for political advantage and power.

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    Re: The President's Speech on Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    You aren't being difficult. I'm trying to think of good ways to simplify some of it after trying to go into some of the nuances.

    You are absolutely correct. From its first modern usage it was completely used as an insult. The term continues to do so. However, there is a degree of consistency to make it somewhat silly for me to be able to dismiss it.
    Fair enough. That's a good point.
    The national security of the United States can never be left in the hands of liberals.

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    Re: The President's Speech on Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Ok, I'll jump.....

    It's all about context and the intent of those who use the term. When some people use the term "NeoCon", they do indeed mean it as a slur, and as a means to reference Jews.

    Just as it is all about the "intent" of those who go overseas to initiate talks with whatever country.
    If your motives are pure, and your desire is to simply talk -no ****ing problem, but if the purpose of your trip to whatever country, is to undermine the Foreign Policy of an Administration, with the ultimate goal being that of electoral victory...

    ...well, then we have a different story altogether.

    There's a word for someone who would damage the security of their Nation in exchange for political advantage and power.
    i had no idea that neocon was a slur for jew. i thought it was a slur for all those idiots surrounding bush when he was in office.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: The President's Speech on Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    i had no idea that neocon was a slur for jew. i thought it was a slur for all those idiots surrounding bush when he was in office.
    Yep, or any Conservative/Republican lefties don't agree with.
    The national security of the United States can never be left in the hands of liberals.

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    Re: The President's Speech on Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Try to think of it as Obama's foreign policy needing to be all at the same time 1) Consistently speak and act with the mindset of a hawk 2) Wilsonian in ideal 3) Skeptical of the complete usefulness of international organizations like the UN.
    I claim the badge-of-honor of being a Neocon. This is not so much for domestic reasons, although I think there is some overlap. I am firmly fiscally conservative, but I also feel government has a big role to play in development of the country. I just happen to feel that entitlements, which are necessary, must be the purview of state and local government, not federal government. I am totally socially liberal, as far as government attempts to restrict abortion, gay marriage and the like. So, I really am unsure whether I fit domestic policy of Neocons.

    It is the foreign policy of some Neocons, and when the term was used for people in support of the Iraq war, was when I said, sure, I'm a Neocon, with pride.

    So here you list three things that I totally agree with, although I am a little confused with what you are really saying in point three. I think you are saying that international organizations are completely useless, but you may be saying Neocons are skeptical that they are useless.

    • Consistently speak and act with the mindset of a hawk - hell yes. We spend all this money to project power anywhere in the globe and with regards to those countries that don't respect that power, whether they are bad actors, or whether they are in bed with bad actors, we need to set the record straight. Doesn't mean we will act unilaterally if we can build a coalition, but we c an if we need to.
    • Wilsonian in ideal - damn right. We need to act on principle and stop supporting bad actors cause they control things which we have interests: oil, Suez/Panama Canal, shipping lanes. In fact, we should focus on promoting our ideals with the very countries that hold our interests, and thus combine our idealism and our realism.
    • Skeptical of the complete usefulness of international organizations like the UN - now I think this is saying that the UN is useful, at least partially. The hell with the UN, I say. Between the population of dictatorships and other forms of autocracies and failed states having majority domination in the General Assembly (and the Human Rights Council, etc) and then those countries on the Security Council who are opposed to a hawkish spreading of Democracy, like Russia and China, the UN is a snake pit. I appreciate much more the idea of forming an Organization of Democratic States to spread democracy and act preemptively with political, diplomatic, economic and military power. I believe in selective international organizations.

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    Re: The President's Speech on Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    i had no idea that neocon was a slur for jew. i thought it was a slur for all those idiots surrounding bush when he was in office.
    I know it was meant to be a dig, but just in case...

    Think of it as being a slur against so called hawkish Jews. The ones in America who believe in showcasing American might on the world stage at the same time as believing it in the best interests of the United States to be firmly tied to Israel and defend it vigilantly. Those Jews can get picked on, and while there is a disproportionate amount of Jews being labeled as neoconservatives, much of the neoconservative identity also lay with those who are not Jewish, or in the case of one who is Jewish, but it took a protestant to give him the feeling that Israel was such a vital ally.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 03-31-11 at 02:26 PM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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