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Thread: The President's Speech on Libya

  1. #121
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    Re: The President's Speech on Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Mars View Post
    0bama said the reasons are to stop Gaddafi from killing civilians and force Gaddafi to leave.

    I think those are worthy reasons.
    Ron - You have to come to the conclusion that we AREN'T all alike, we DON'T have the same motivations and desires, and that our belief that a democratic/republic form of government is best, is egocentric and frankly, not supported by history

    Japan didn't understand our culture and as a consequence, they started a war they couldn't win. We didn't act according to their culture and didn't follow their expectations. The majority of Americans really don't understand other cultures very well (in some respects) and fail to recognize democracy is not compatible with some cultures and religious beliefs. At least not in their current configuration. To make a viable, western style democracy work in the Arab world we have to destroy their culture and replace it with a new one that is compatible with democracy. If most of them like their culture and their way of life, where do we get the idea that we have a right to tear it up just because we think ours is better? Where do we get the right to do something to somebody against their will, "For their own good"?

    That notion goes against our core concepts of freedom and self determination. Self determination doesn't mean the right to decide your own course and fate so long as we agree with it. Only when their course is a threat to us and we have to do something in self defense do we have the right to interfere with another culture/nation.

    Another thing...Good governments don't go on forever and spending US money plus American lives to spread democracy just ain't cutting the mustard

  2. #122
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    Re: The President's Speech on Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    No, not good reasons. Obama is lying anyway, if he felt those reasons were good ones, he would have support the war in Iraq.
    I believe the reasons are noble and I certainly hope 0bama doesn't go wobbly on us.
    The national security of the United States can never be left in the hands of liberals.

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    Re: The President's Speech on Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Mars View Post
    I believe the reasons are noble and I certainly hope 0bama doesn't go wobbly on us.
    He needs to shut down operations until he has a declaration of war from Congress.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: The President's Speech on Libya

    Gaddafi poses a direct threat to the United States? I didn't even know he was beating his chest, thought he was opening up trade relations like crazy. What a difference al Quaida makes.

    Libya, France Sign ‘Declaration of Intent’
    24/10/2010 22:07:00
    Tripoli-Libya and France signed on Thursday a Declaration of Intent aims to establish a 'strategic partnership' between the two countries in various fields.

    The declaration called for the activation of the 5+5 dialogue as to be able to influence regional policies, broadening its scope and promoting the fight against illegal immigration.

    The declaration was signed by Secretary of Industry, Economy, Trade and Investment Mr. Mohammed Hawaij and France's Industry Minister Christian Estrosi.

    The strategic partnership includes the construction of a nuclear power plant in Libya. The document provides for bilateral talks prior to the signing of an accord between the Libyan Nuclear Energy Authority and the French Atomic Energy Agency. This will facilitate the establishment of a nuclear legislation and the conduct of studies necessary for the building a nuclear power plant.

    A team from the French Atomic Energy Agency will visit Libya for the implementation of a program for capacity building and plans to construct the nuclear power plant.

    Hawaij invited, after the signing ceremony, invited French companies wishing to invest in Libya's industrial areas to do so in such a way that companies from both countries will be able to market their products in either nation.

    Estrosi arrived in the Libyan capital on board a new Airbus passenger jet, one of a consignment of aircraft which the company is contracted to supply to state-owned carrier Libyan Airlines.
    Libya, France Sign ‘Declaration of Intent’

  5. #125
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    Re: The President's Speech on Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Ron - You have to come to the conclusion that we AREN'T all alike, we DON'T have the same motivations and desires, and that our belief that a democratic/republic form of government is best, is egocentric and frankly, not supported by history

    Japan didn't understand our culture and as a consequence, they started a war they couldn't win. We didn't act according to their culture and didn't follow their expectations. The majority of Americans really don't understand other cultures very well (in some respects) and fail to recognize democracy is not compatible with some cultures and religious beliefs. At least not in their current configuration. To make a viable, western style democracy work in the Arab world we have to destroy their culture and replace it with a new one that is compatible with democracy. If most of them like their culture and their way of life, where do we get the idea that we have a right to tear it up just because we think ours is better? Where do we get the right to do something to somebody against their will, "For their own good"?

    That notion goes against our core concepts of freedom and self determination. Self determination doesn't mean the right to decide your own course and fate so long as we agree with it. Only when their course is a threat to us and we have to do something in self defense do we have the right to interfere with another culture/nation.
    Ric, I'm well aware the US style of Democracy will not work everywhere. A free and peaceful government of the peoples choosing is what I favor. If it’s not a representative democracy so what. As long as they are peaceful I don't care what government the people choose. If they choose communism it would be foolish but their choice. That defines self-determination IMO.

    The Japanese were trying to take over the western pacific including Australia. Our clash of cultures before the war was driven by Japanese actions in China. I've spent quite a bit of time reading about this period of American history. Especially the pacific during WWII.

    We are not and did not destroy Iraqi culture or any other culture where we helped establish a free and peaceful government. I saw lots of culture we didn't destroy in South Korea. I don't know where you get that idea.
    The national security of the United States can never be left in the hands of liberals.

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    Re: The President's Speech on Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    He needs to shut down operations until he has a declaration of war from Congress.
    I'd settle for Congressional approval. He should have been asking Congress for that yesterday.
    The national security of the United States can never be left in the hands of liberals.

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    Re: The President's Speech on Libya

    As far as a declaration of war, who would we declare war on? Gaddafi?

    I had the same questions after 9/11 to those suggesting war should be declared before military action.
    The national security of the United States can never be left in the hands of liberals.

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    Re: The President's Speech on Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Mars View Post
    As far as a declaration of war, who would we declare war on? Gaddafi?

    I had the same questions after 9/11 to those suggesting war should be declared before military action.
    Yes. It's his armor, vehicles, and air defenses that we are blasting into oblivion after all.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: The President's Speech on Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Mars View Post
    As far as a declaration of war, who would we declare war on? Gaddafi?

    I had the same questions after 9/11 to those suggesting war should be declared before military action.
    Congress could either declare war, or issue statutes approving specific hostile actions.

  10. #130
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    Re: The President's Speech on Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Mars View Post
    Ric, I'm well aware the US style of Democracy will not work everywhere. A free and peaceful government of the peoples choosing is what I favor. If it’s not a representative democracy so what. As long as they are peaceful I don't care what government the people choose. If they choose communism it would be foolish but their choice. That defines self-determination IMO.
    Just a quick reply. More on your other points....later on

    I don't like people directing my life and telling me to do something else, "because it's for my own good", when I very clearly have a different idea about what is for my own good. So long as I'm exercising my rights responsibly and not interfering with someone else's free exercise of their rights, then I should be left the **** alone.

    In essence, that is the heart of our republic. Freedom. Not absolute freedom, but freedom minimally restricted by laws to protect the rights of all, not just the strong.

    If that is our belief for us, why shouldn't we apply it to our relations with other nations as well?

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