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Thread: kill team used body parts in poker games

  1. #101
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    Re: kill team used body parts in poker games

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    From personal experience, that's not enforced. I mailed home an Iraqi army helmet and it now adorns the bar back of a little joint in Hammond, Louisiana. All without permission from the CENTCOM commander.

    I'm sure that our members that are Iraq and Afghanistan vets can attest to that.

    That's what I think about that.
    Well this particular order came out in 2006, so with respect, it was a bit after your time and I do believe it does refer to souvenirs obtained and kept in-theater. It also says this:

    Paragraph 2 of this General Order is punitive. Persons subject to the UCMJ may be punished thereunder. Civilians serving with, employed by, or accompanying the Armed Forecs of the United States in the USCENTCOM AOR may face criminal prosecution or adverse administrative action for violation of this General Order. In the case of contingency contractors, DOD INstruction 3020.41, dated October 3, 2005, provides guidance on administrative actions.
    I understand it to be a criminal offense, seems that things have changed a bit since your time in Desert Storm.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 03-29-11 at 12:20 AM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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  2. #102
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    Re: kill team used body parts in poker games

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Well this particular order came out in 2006, so with respect, it was a bit after your time and I do believe it does refer to souvenirs obtained and kept in-theater. It also says this:

    Paragraph 2 of this General Order is punitive. Persons subject to the UCMJ may be punished thereunder. Civilians serving with, employed by, or accompanying the Armed Forecs of the United States in the USCENTCOM AOR may face criminal prosecution or adverse administrative action for violation of this General Order. In the case of contingency contractors, DOD INstruction 3020.41, dated October 3, 2005, provides guidance on administrative actions.

    I understand it to be a criminal offense, seems that things have changed a bit since your time in Desert Storm.
    Right, but it still only pertains to trophies of war that are being shipped out of theater. It says nothing about possessing them in theater. Again, I want to hear from Iraq and Afghanistan vets about the issue.

  3. #103
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    Re: kill team used body parts in poker games

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Right, but it still only pertains to trophies of war that are being shipped out of theater. It says nothing about possessing them in theater.
    I believe the word "acquire" and the phrase "for personal use" refers to keeping them in theater. Otherwise the phrase "shipped out of the USCENTCOM AOR" would not be necessary in referring to something else. Clearly you disagree.

    Again, I want to hear from Iraq and Afghanistan vets about the issue.
    Fair enough.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  4. #104
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    Re: kill team used body parts in poker games

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    Those kids are just sick.

    It makes me wonder, if some of them joined the military just because they wanted to kill people... It's really hard to believe that they simply went crazy from being in a war zone, or that they didn't know this was wrong.

    What do you think?

    The original source is Rolling Stone magazine... not exactly a credible mainstream media outlet.

    Assuming there's any truth to any of this, we don't know how much or what is true and what is exaggeration or outright lie.

    As others have pointed out, the taking of "trophies" has been commonplace for a very long time and will probably never go away entirely. My uncle, who was in WW2, looted a number of Luftwaffen soldiers of small personal items as "trophies"... allegedly he killed some of them himself. I have some of these items in my possession; I personally consider them family heirlooms as they are mementos of a part of the family history. Not nearly as grisly as ears or fingers, but I had ancestors on both sides of the Indian wars who took scalps....

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  5. #105
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    Re: kill team used body parts in poker games

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    The original source is Rolling Stone magazine... not exactly a credible mainstream media outlet.

    Assuming there's any truth to any of this, we don't know how much or what is true and what is exaggeration or outright lie.

    As others have pointed out, the taking of "trophies" has been commonplace for a very long time and will probably never go away entirely. My uncle, who was in WW2, looted a number of Luftwaffen soldiers of small personal items as "trophies"... allegedly he killed some of them himself. I have some of these items in my possession; I personally consider them family heirlooms as they are mementos of a part of the family history. Not nearly as grisly as ears or fingers, but I had ancestors on both sides of the Indian wars who took scalps....
    I still think it's a valid issue at the very least in this modern era. In today's world, the taking of trophies, especially body parts, is a sign of a serial killer, in our society at least.

    In fact, the more I read about these murders, the more they seem like the M.O. of a serial killer and those involved seem to fit the standard profile for one. White male from a lower-middleclass background, killing for "the thrill", a history of petty crimes, inability to hold down a steady job, etc.

    To apdst: either back up your claim that Your Star made this thread only in an attempt to demonize the military or stop making it. As I already said, arguing that the actions of a few represent the whole of a group is utterly baseless and no one has made that argument, yet you are accusing anyone that looks at these individuals actions with disgust of hating our military. That isn't true, you've been told multiple times it isn't true, but your persecution complex seems incapable of allowing you to acknowledge it.

    So, for the last time, stop trying to use this as a way of attacking a strawman of liberals.
    “The more you know, the harder it is to take decisive action. Once you become informed, you start seeing complexities and shades of gray. You realize that nothing is as clear and simple as it first appears. Ultimately, knowledge is paralyzing.” - Bill Watterson
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  6. #106
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    Re: kill team used body parts in poker games

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBook View Post
    I still think it's a valid issue at the very least in this modern era. In today's world, the taking of trophies, especially body parts, is a sign of a serial killer, in our society at least.

    In fact, the more I read about these murders, the more they seem like the M.O. of a serial killer and those involved seem to fit the standard profile for one. White male from a lower-middleclass background, killing for "the thrill", a history of petty crimes, inability to hold down a steady job, etc.

    To apdst: either back up your claim that Your Star made this thread only in an attempt to demonize the military or stop making it. As I already said, arguing that the actions of a few represent the whole of a group is utterly baseless and no one has made that argument, yet you are accusing anyone that looks at these individuals actions with disgust of hating our military. That isn't true, you've been told multiple times it isn't true, but your persecution complex seems incapable of allowing you to acknowledge it.

    So, for the last time, stop trying to use this as a way of attacking a strawman of liberals.
    Two things, just real quick like: 1) You Star didn't start this thread and 2) I never said that She Wolf started this thread, just to demonize all American soldiers. Nice try at making me the topic of the thread; I understand how you can be in awe of me, but you predictably blew it.

  7. #107
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    Re: kill team used body parts in poker games

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Two things, just real quick like: 1) You Star didn't start this thread and 2) I never said that She Wolf started this thread, just to demonize all American soldiers. Nice try at making me the topic of the thread; I understand how you can be in awe of me, but you predictably blew it.
    I apologize, it's late and I confused the two.

    Perhaps I should have said implying it, as you continue to make the point that
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Liberalism is full-a-idiots. They've proven that.

    How many Libbos start feel good threads about our troops? None, huh?
    There are no Liberals using this thread to demonize the military as a whole. That accusation is a false bit of partisan bile.

    As for the relevant topic, I don't know the military regulations, I'll have to ask some of my friends (although I'll bet cpgrad08 would probably know) but even if it isn't explicitly stated that mutilating the corpses of civilians and making trophies of their body parts isn't allowed, isn't that a morally contemptible act?
    “The more you know, the harder it is to take decisive action. Once you become informed, you start seeing complexities and shades of gray. You realize that nothing is as clear and simple as it first appears. Ultimately, knowledge is paralyzing.” - Bill Watterson
    Who Is Chicago Ted?

  8. #108
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    Re: kill team used body parts in poker games

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    It's not irrelevant... Read the Rolling Stone article. Taking photos of human causalities and trading them is forbidden by the US military.
    still irrelevent. it's like bitching about a guy violating the speed limit while fleeing the scene of a rape
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  9. #109
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    Re: kill team used body parts in poker games

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    You really think it's completely legal for soldiers to take photos of dead bodies in the military and trade them??
    taking photos of dead bodies is completely legal. about the only way you can get in trouble for that is if there is classified info/details in the pictures. then they can get you for a security violation. taking and swapping pics of dead bodies is not illegal.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

  10. #110
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    Re: kill team used body parts in poker games

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBook View Post
    I apologize, it's late and I confused the two.

    Perhaps I should have said implying it, as you continue to make the point that

    There are no Liberals using this thread to demonize the military as a whole. That accusation is a false bit of partisan bile.
    He simply said liberals don't start feel good threads about our military, which may or may not be true. Anything else you took from his comment is what you read into it.
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