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Thread: Soldier gets 24 years for killing Afghan civilians

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    Re: Soldier gets 24 years for killing Afghan civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    If I did, it would already have been posted. For now, I only have the fact that NO Army private has access to that much high level material.
    Well until then I don't think it's implausible that the kid was just a good hacker, or someone was being loose with their information security.
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    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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    Re: Soldier gets 24 years for killing Afghan civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Well until then I don't think it's implausible that the kid was just a good hacker, or someone was being loose with their information security.
    implausible, no. improbable, yes.

    I'm not sold on the idea that this kid, alone leaked hundreds of thousands of pages of classified material. I do believe that he was fed most of this material by someone higher up on the food chain; hence the reason he's being held under such tight security.

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    Re: Soldier gets 24 years for killing Afghan civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    implausible, no. improbable, yes.

    I'm not sold on the idea that this kid, alone leaked hundreds of thousands of pages of classified material. I do believe that he was fed most of this material by someone higher up on the food chain; hence the reason he's being held under such tight security.
    Interesting, guess we'll see how it turns out.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Soldier gets 24 years for killing Afghan civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Interesting, guess we'll see how it turns out.
    I'm sure we won't hear much about it, in the end.

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    Re: Soldier gets 24 years for killing Afghan civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    If I did, it would already have been posted. For now, I only have the fact that NO Army private has access to that much high level material.
    That's also not true at all. A Private with the MOS of Intel will have more access than a sergeant and plenty of officers. In fact, just because you have clearance in a particular office, which has sensitive material lying around on a desk, doesn't mean that his clearance level will gain him access anywhere else that demands the same or lesser clearance. Authorization matters.

    I am a Marine Master Sergeant of 19 years. I have a Secret clearance with access to extremely sensitive material that others with a Secret clearance can't touch because of my team mission. In my team of 17, I have one Sergeant who happens to be one of the 6 intel "officers." He has a Top Secret clearance.

    My point here is that rank doesn't matter. Also, "high level material" isn't as Hollywood as civilians think. You should know this.
    Last edited by MSgt; 03-29-11 at 12:26 AM.

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    Re: Soldier gets 24 years for killing Afghan civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    implausible, no. improbable, yes.

    I'm not sold on the idea that this kid, alone leaked hundreds of thousands of pages of classified material. I do believe that he was fed most of this material by someone higher up on the food chain; hence the reason he's being held under such tight security.
    Of course he did man, c'mon. Are you telling me that Army intel has no non-NCOs in the MOS? That all are officers and high level SNCOs? Even Intel needs someone to organize papers and take out the trash. Marine Intellgence has PFCs and Lance Corporals in the MOS. That PFC will have a higher clearance than the Motor T mech who holds the rank of SSgt or that Supply Officer who holds the rank of Lt. in most cases.
    Last edited by MSgt; 03-29-11 at 12:31 AM.

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    Re: Soldier gets 24 years for killing Afghan civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    That's also not true at all. A Private with the MOS of Intel will have more access than a sergeant and plenty of officers. In fact, just because you have clearance in a particular office, which has sensitive material lying around on a desk, doesn't mean that his clearance level will gain him access anywhere else that demands the same or lesser clearance. Authorization matters.

    I am a Marine Master Sergeant of 19 years. I have a Secret clearance with access to extremely sensitive material that others with a Secret clearance can't touch because of my team mission. In my team of 17, I have one Sergeant who happens to be one of the 6 intel "officers." He has a Top Secret clearance.

    My point here is that rank doesn't matter. Also, "high level material" isn't as Hollywood as civilians think. You should know this.
    I had a top secret security clearance when I was an E-7, because of weapons systems that we had in our units, at that time. Although I had a top secret clearance, there was also a, "need to know", factor involved and while Manning might have had the security clearance access that information, I doubt he had the need to know, which wouldn't allow him to get his hands on that many docs, all by himself.

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    Re: Soldier gets 24 years for killing Afghan civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I had a top secret security clearance when I was an E-7, because of weapons systems that we had in our units, at that time. Although I had a top secret clearance, there was also a, "need to know", factor involved and while Manning might have had the security clearance access that information, I doubt he had the need to know, which wouldn't allow him to get his hands on that many docs, all by himself.
    Why do you doubt this? There's no conspiracy here. Any individual with a SIPR account can read and print tons of material, especially if one's MOS placed him in a secure environment where said material was readily available. Where his fellow soldiers failed was allowing him to break procedures by handling CD-Rs and external hard drives (thumb drives). But my guess is that they were all breaking the rules and listening to music devices through their computers and paid no attention. They all failed, but only one maliciously betrayed us all.

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    Re: Soldier gets 24 years for killing Afghan civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Why do you doubt this? There's no conspiracy here. Any individual with a SIPR account can read and print tons of material, especially if one's MOS placed him in a secure environment where said material was readily available. Where his fellow soldiers failed was allowing him to break procedures by handling CD-Rs and external hard drives (thumb drives). But my guess is that they were all breaking the rules and listening to music devices through their computers and paid no attention. They all failed, but only one maliciously betrayed us all.
    True Many Non-Com and Jr Enlistment Marines here have Secret and TS clearance and have access to all that "good stuff" it's not as hard to get your hands on it as one would think.

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    Re: Soldier gets 24 years for killing Afghan civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    That's also not true at all. A Private with the MOS of Intel will have more access than a sergeant and plenty of officers. In fact, just because you have clearance in a particular office, which has sensitive material lying around on a desk, doesn't mean that his clearance level will gain him access anywhere else that demands the same or lesser clearance. Authorization matters.

    I am a Marine Master Sergeant of 19 years. I have a Secret clearance with access to extremely sensitive material that others with a Secret clearance can't touch because of my team mission. In my team of 17, I have one Sergeant who happens to be one of the 6 intel "officers." He has a Top Secret clearance.

    My point here is that rank doesn't matter. Also, "high level material" isn't as Hollywood as civilians think. You should know this.
    this is true. I have a top secret clearance. I have 3 officer MOS (14E, 31A and 90A: air defense, military police and logistics) I am a Captain and have been a company commander and a staff officer. my daughter is a specialist (E4) 35F intel analyst. during our last deployment, she had access to more sensitive info/material than I did because, as an analyst, she had a need to know and I as battalion supply officer did not.
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