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Soldier gets 24 years for killing Afghan civilians

I have, often the claim is far exxagerated and not very accurate.





Was he convicted of a felony?

you are right he never should have been in, however, unless he was a felon, and did not score on his ASVAB, etc, I don't see this as the Army's fault/

I'm not blaming the Army for this, I'm just saying it is what it is, unfortunately. Same with people like Major Hasan. There are just some people who don't belong in the military yet for whatever reason people overlook the problems until something big happens.
 
I'm not blaming the Army for this, I'm just saying it is what it is, unfortunately. Same with people like Major Hasan. There are just some people who don't belong in the military yet for whatever reason people overlook the problems until something big happens.

Notice what you just did. You aren't "blaming the Army," then go ahead and bring up yet another example, which happens to be ..ding ding ding...Army. Then you go ahead and group it as a "military problem."

The reason this upsets me is that this has been going on for a very long time. You weren't even aware of what you wrote because it's natural. By lumping the never ending incidences that come out of the Army into the "military" you help to facilitate its continuation. The media does this. Politicians do this. Soldiers do this. As long as the Army doesn't have to own its responsibility and the "military" has the problem, they will contunue business as usual. Look at it.....

- Manning's a traitor.

- Hasan's a traitor and a murderer.

- Targetting Qur'ans to Zero weapons.

- Akbar's a traitor and murders with a grenade.

- Burning bodies.

- Jessica Lynch and crew get caught with Ipods in their ears and weapons stored in the back of vehicles on convoy.

- Plots to murder civilians.

- Abu-Ghraib.

And this is just off the top of my head since 2003. What about Black Hawk Down? Mai Lai? It doesn't seem to matter the war or the generation. But there is one thing consistent isn't there? Are these Airmen? Sailors? Marines? No. They are soldiers from the U.S. Army. Do people honestly not see this? Are we so caught up in not wanting to bash on the Army that we go ahead and lump it as "military" so as to bash everybody? Parents expect their children to be trained as soldiers before they enter a combat zone. They don't expect them to not be able to defend themselves. They don't expect them to be victims of military blundering. They do not expect them to be murdered by fellow soldiers. But that's exactly what their children are set up for from one campaign to the next because nobody holds the U.S. Army accountable for it's lack of training and discipline. Nothing ever changes. Always the "military" takes the criticism while the Army hangs back in the shadows and designs excuses. "Oh, Jessica Lynch and crew aren't infantry." "Oh, we have more numbers." "Oh, everybody has problems and makes mistakes." "Oh, nobody could have known." "Oh, but this isn't the Army's fault" - Reverendhellhound.

Well if these excuses are valid then where are the traitors in the other branches? Where are the plots to murder civilians? Why are only soldiers only captured? Where are the great blunders in the other branches? Why does the Army have so many Generals that defy authority and express their opinions as if already retired and working in Washington for a Senator? I have always stated that underneath all the designed excuses that allow the same old crap to persevere is a discipline problem. Soldiers here like to default into merely calling it bashing, but good god look at the examples. This isn't as simple as "bashing" anything. These aren't isolated incidents. These aren't mistakes in combat or accidents unavoidable. These are trends. And they are largely ignored as trends because branch pride won't allow for correction.
 
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MSgt:

You said it yourself, the Army faces different pressures compared to the other branches. Their job is to keep people in, not kick people out. They face different pressures, and obviously they will have more problems than the Corps. The Air Force and Navy are downsizing. It appears that you are trying to indict their entire culture, the entire institution. Maybe you do have a point, but that's only one side of the story.

For the record, when I said I don't blame the Army I meant that I don't blame recruiters for lowering standards. They were between a rock and a hard place.
 
Due to their tougher physical standards, the USMC tends to weed out the losers/dirtbags and malcontents during boot. Due to their lower manpower requirements, and higher technical nature, the USAF and USN can be more selective in their recruiting so the losers never make it in.

That leaves the Army, high manpower requirement and without the glamour of the air force and navy or the prestige of the marines. most of the marginal cases and outright losers and dirtbags end up in the army.

I wish I had a dollar for every "soldier" I have had to discipline who was a washout from one of the other branches.
 
You said it yourself, the Army faces different pressures compared to the other branches. Their job is to keep people in, not kick people out.


No, I stated that it's the Army recruiter's job to get people in, not keep them out. While other branches have higher standards and far less waivers, the amount of waivers that are in the Army system suggests that recruitment is difficult for that branch. History suggests the same thing. But this is no excuse for a lack of training. Training involves behavioral changes, pride in history, outside box thinking, small unit leadership, discipline, integrity. Sure these things are taught. But they are not trained and there is a big difference.

Look at it like this. There is a reason the Marine Corps is what it is. Do you think it's because we receive the same training? No. What is it about the Marine Corps mood that creates an organization that doesn't produce the trends of the Army? It absolutely has something to do with the culture and the institution. If you have two households full of kids and one seems to always be the one that continues to produce criminals, do we still insist that both houses have a problem that needs to be addressed so that the one doesn'thave to feel bad?

Maybe it's because the Army is generic in nature. They are labeled "army" and their troops are just "soldiers." But is this an excuse to keep denying them training? Not maintaining higher discipline standards? I am so very tired of the nation having to be embarrassed over this garbage and our efforts abroad being more difficult than it has to be. And there are far too many "isolated" incidents from one event to the next for people to keep pretending that leadership and discipline isn't a culprit. This has always been more than an individual problem.

By the way, we are all downsizing.
 
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Due to their tougher physical standards, the USMC tends to weed out the losers/dirtbags and malcontents during boot. Due to their lower manpower requirements, and higher technical nature, the USAF and USN can be more selective in their recruiting so the losers never make it in.

But this still denies the problem. Only a lack of discipline and professionalism would allow a General to run off at the mouth and be fired in front of the international audience. Only a lack of loyalty would allow a Major to slaughter on an Army base. We aren't talking about boot washouts. If this problem exists at that level, how bad do you think it is as you go down the chain? It's a complete lack of discipline, pride, and brotherhood that would allow a soldier to murder his own. It's a complete lack of professionalism that would allow a soldier to use a Qu'ran as target practice as other soldiers of other ranks simply watch. A plot to murder civilians by a group of soldiers shows a complete lack of cohesion and leadership in the unit itself. And since we are talking about what is more of a trend than they are exceptions down through history, shouldn't we address it properly?

Even the Corps has its discipline problems. The difference is that they know all day that they have no freedom to express their malicious opinions or to misbehave according to their personal disapprovals. I've been on airplanes a lot this year already. For every two or three squared away soldiers I see walking through the terminals I see another that's unbloused, slouching, unlaced, or simply looking like he hates his uniform. This attitude to "buck the system" translates throughout the ranks and into events abroad. Why do you think the Marine Corps is so big on insignificant details like "Irish Pennants," hair cuts, weight standards, wall locker inspections, CGRIs? It's because if those are sloppy, it will translate into something later that will matter.
 
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But this still denies the problem. Only a lack of discipline and professionalism would allow a General to run off at the mouth and be fired in front of the international audience. If this problem exists at that level, how bad do you think it is as you go down the chain? It's a complete lack of discipline, pride, and brotherhood that would allow a soldier to murder his own. It's a complete lack of professionalism that would allow a soldier to use a Qu'ran as target practice as other soldiers of other ranks simply watch. A plot to murder civilians by a group of soldiers shows a complete lack of cohesion and leadership in the unit itself.

Even the Corps hasits discipline problems. The difference is that they know all day that they have no freedom to express their malicious opinions or to misbehave according to their personal disapprovals. I've been on airplanes a lot this year already. For every two or three squared away soldiers I see walking through the terminals I see another that's unbloused, slouching, unlaced, or simply looking like he hates his uniform. This attitude to "buck the system" translates throughout the ranks and into events abroad. Why do you think the Marine Corps is so big on insignificant details like "Irish Pennants," hair cuts, weight standards, wall locker inspections, CGRIs? It's because if those are sloppy, it will translate into something later that will matter.

and there is the kicker. for whatever reason, the Army has pussified its standards and training. back in '05, I was at Ft Leonard Wood for my MP officer advance course. I was June and about 90 degrees. I was driving to the PX and saw a freakin drill SGT mowing grass. I was dumbfounded. I felt compelled to stop my car and ask him "WTF is going on here?" his reply saddened me and all I could do was shake my head. he said, "Sir, it is too hot for us to make the trainees mow the grass". So while this career NCO, sweated his ass off in the summer sun, the trainees were sitting on their asses in an air conditioned theater watching "motivational videos".

I don't know who makes these kinds of stupid ass policies, but that is where the trouble lies. back in my day, most of the trouble makers and malcontents were washed out by the rigors of basic training. sadly, these days, you don't even have to pass the freakin PT test to graduate.
 
and there is the kicker. for whatever reason, the Army has pussified its standards and training. back in '05, I was at Ft Leonard Wood for my MP officer advance course. I was June and about 90 degrees. I was driving to the PX and saw a freakin drill SGT mowing grass. I was dumbfounded. I felt compelled to stop my car and ask him "WTF is going on here?" his reply saddened me and all I could do was shake my head. he said, "Sir, it is too hot for us to make the trainees mow the grass". So while this career NCO, sweated his ass off in the summer sun, the trainees were sitting on their asses in an air conditioned theater watching "motivational videos".

Absolute leaderhip problem.


I don't know who makes these kinds of stupid ass policies, but that is where the trouble lies.

I think its because of the Army focus. The Army has always focused on big box wars and are less concerned with other type missions. This may translate on the Army's expressed focus on big unit training vice individual soldier training. In other words, if the unit is strong, the individuals must be too. "The Army of One" hasn't translated very well into the unit. In the Marines, the core unit focus is the Fire Team, which means the individual has to be in focus. In other words, of the individual is strong, the unit is strong.
 
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In other words, if the individual is strong, the unit is strong.


and that's where, IMHO, the Army has it ass backwards.
 
Due to their tougher physical standards, the USMC tends to weed out the losers/dirtbags and malcontents during boot. Due to their lower manpower requirements, and higher technical nature, the USAF and USN can be more selective in their recruiting so the losers never make it in.

That leaves the Army, high manpower requirement and without the glamour of the air force and navy or the prestige of the marines. most of the marginal cases and outright losers and dirtbags end up in the army.

I wish I had a dollar for every "soldier" I have had to discipline who was a washout from one of the other branches.

That's debtable. I went to a mix branch school and there were mostly Marines in my class. The Marine barracks were next door to ours and they had their fair share of goofballs.
 
That's debtable. I went to a mix branch school and there were mostly Marines in my class. The Marine barracks were next door to ours and they had their fair share of goofballs.

yeah, but there is a difference between being a goofball and being a total dirtbag. I have seen guys fresh from AIT that I wouldn't trust clean a toilet
 
Let me start by saying what those GIs did was horrific and totally against anything the military or the USA stands for.
I dont know how many of you are combat veterans, but these young guys are under huge stress. No the videos didnt show that, but stress becomes evident in many different ways. People handle stress differently. These guys are subjected to tour after tour after tour, being away from family and friends and familiar surroundings. This has been going on for 10 long years. Nam didnt go on that long and most all did one or two tours in nam..not constant repetitive tours over and over. The military was far larger during nam, its much smaller now and the rotation is grueling.
Im not condoning their horrific acts of barbarism nor trying to justify it...im merely bringing out a truthful point of view...the stress they are under contributed to what occurred. Its unusual for a GROUP to do what they did there have always been incidents with individuals. My lai in nam comes to mind, when you get a group committing horrific acts that leads me to believe that stress played a major role. I also believe that the Commanders at least platoon sgts and company commanders should be held to some accountability, if they were on top of their men and doing their job this couldnt have gone on so long...same with abu grahib. Men under stress in combat need supervision and cant be left to their own designs. You need those Sgts putting a foot in your arse to keep you straight.
 
24 year prison sentence is not enough?

I love and respect the folks that put on the uniform and put their lives on the line for us, but 24-years for serial murder seems light. Then again, I haven't read up on the case, and with that will shut my yap.

.
 
I love and respect the folks that put on the uniform and put their lives on the line for us, but 24-years for serial murder seems light. Then again, I haven't read up on the case, and with that will shut my yap.

.


basically they gave this kid a deal: reduced sentence in return for testifying against the others. you can bet your ass that the rest don't get off lightly. FWIW, 24 years is a pretty damn harsh sentence for a plea bargain. what would he have gotten without the deal?
 
That's debtable. I went to a mix branch school and there were mostly Marines in my class. The Marine barracks were next door to ours and they had their fair share of goofballs.

This is exactly what I brought up as one of the excuses always given and why nothing will ever change for the Army. The point wasn't about everyone's share of goof balls. The point was about why the Army's goof balls wind up embarrassing the nation and causing disasters. Where the Marine Corps will have a video on 60 Minutes showing a hazing event within a Recon Platoon, the Army will have a Major shooting up a base, or soldiers committing civilian murder, or whole convoys taken prisoner, or generals being fired, or celebrity Football players getting fragged by his own, etc.


Here's another one....

"Gangs Spreading In The Military"

The U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Command reported 61 gang investigations and incidents last year, compared to just 9 in 2004.

Notice the headline - Exclusive: Gangs Spreading In The Military. It didn't state Army, even though the entire article is about the Army. It stated "military" that way we can all share in the shame.

Exclusive: Gangs Spreading In The Military - CBS Evening News - CBS News

I guess everyone has their share of silly goofballs. It bothers me.
 
I love and respect the folks that put on the uniform and put their lives on the line for us, but 24-years for serial murder seems light.

They stopped serving our nation the moment they planned and carried out their plan. They stopped respecting their fellow soldier the moment they maliciously made it harder for those who have their honor to continue the mission.

How much respect should we have for a dirty cop? No need to respect them anymore once they betray what they are supposed to be.
 
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This is exactly what I brought up as one of the excuses always given and why nothing will ever change for the Army. The point wasn't about everyone's share of goof balls. The point was about why the Army's goof balls wind up embarrassing the nation and causing disasters. Where the Marine Corps will have a video on 60 Minutes showing a hazing event within a Recon Platoon, the Army will have a Major shooting up a base, or soldiers committing civilian murder, or whole convoys taken prisoner, or generals being fired, or celebrity Football players getting fragged by his own, etc.


Here's another one....



I guess everyone has their share of silly goofballs. It bothers me.

There are 240,000 Marines and over a million Army personel. It doesn't take a degree in astro physics to figger out that there are going to be way more stories about Army assholes than Marine assholes. The Army's reserve components alone are twice the size of the Marine Corps. It has more to do with statistical probabilities, not the quality of the branch of service.
 
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