G.E.’s Strategies Let It Avoid Taxes Altogether

drz-400 · Mar 30, 2011

Catawba said:
Cheaper than hiring cops and building prisons to keep hungry people from killing you for a loaf of bread. And we spend more on optional wars and military spending and the court systems to increase and protect the assets of the wealthy.

I acknowledge that these may benefit the wealthy more, but they also benefit everyone else.

You want me to feel sorry for those making more than $250,000 when one in seven Americans are poor????

No, didn't want to imply that at all. I was simply pointing out that the "top bracket" that has received the tax cuts you loathe contains many who a part of the middle class, whom you are so vigorously saying is HURT by these policies.

I've provided two sources to your none

Your sources have yet to show me anything but the distribution of income. Based on your sources I can tell NOTHING about the standard of living of ANYONE.

Here is a source, I am assuming you have MS Excel:

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/data/historical/inequality/H01AR_2009.xls

Using US census data and according to my calcs the lowest 20% (the underclass) has had its income grow by $113 per year on average (real 2009 dollars) from 1980 to 2009.

Catawba · Mar 30, 2011

apdst said:
I have a good idea: how 'bout you point out the specific sections of your docs that tell about tax breaks for small businesses. Shouldn't be too hard, since you obviously already know where they are.

"Some industries would benefit from the president's budget. Obama's proposal to immediately spend $50 billion on upgrading the nation's transportation infrastructure would result in more jobs for the hard-hit construction industry."

"The renewable-energy industry would benefit from tax incentives and increased spending on federal research. The budget encourages innovation in general by calling for a permanent, more robust tax credit for research and development."

"Plus, Obama proposed a permanent extension of a tax break that's designed to encourage investment in small businesses. Under this proposal, investors who buy stock in small corporations and hold it for five years would not have to pay capital gains taxes when they sell the stock."
BRIEFS: Obama's 2012 budget mixed bag for business obamas-2012-budget-mixed-bag-for-business

No, I mean people who make 30 or 40 grand a year that get 4 figure refunds every year. That way, everybody pays their fair share. Ain't that what it's all about?

A family of 4 that makes 30 grand is barely above poverty. Like I said you can't get blood from a turnip.

Maybe they should get off their asses and go to work?

They are working full-time. Perhaps we need to start paying wages that leave enough after survival expenses to pay more in taxes.

A better idea would be for Obama to stop killing jobs with his hair brain policies.

What policies would that be? The rate of unemployment is less now than it was before he took office.

Catawba · Mar 30, 2011

drz-400 said:
I acknowledge that these may benefit the wealthy more, but they also benefit everyone else.

Our social safety net programs benefit everyone by keeping our old folks and the sick from living in the streets, or in prisons

No, didn't want to imply that at all. I was simply pointing out that the "top bracket" that has received the tax cuts you loathe contains many who a part of the middle class, whom you are so vigorously saying is HURT by these policies.

If someone is making more than $250,000 a year, they are not hurting.

Your sources have yet to show me anything but the distribution of income. Based on your sources I can tell NOTHING about the standard of living of ANYONE.

Here is a source, I am assuming you have MS Excel:

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/data/historical/inequality/H01AR_2009.xls

Using US census data and according to my calcs the lowest 20% (the underclass) has had its income grow by $113 per year on average (real 2009 dollars) from 1980 to 2009.

Now compare that with cost of living increase since 1980 and you will see that the lowest 20% has declined in standard of living, while the upper classes have prospered.

"In 2007, when the world was on the brink of financial crisis, U.S. income inequality hit its highest mark since 1928, just before the Great Depression."
How American Income Inequality Hit Levels Not Seen Since The Depression

The Prof · Mar 30, 2011

Catawba said:
"Some industries would benefit from the president's budget. Obama's proposal to immediately spend $50 billion on upgrading the nation's transportation infrastructure would result in more jobs for the hard-hit construction industry."

Obama: "No Such Thing as Shovel-Ready Projects" - Political Hotsheet - CBS News

"The renewable-energy industry would benefit from tax incentives and increased spending on federal research. The budget encourages innovation in general by calling for a permanent, more robust tax credit for research and development."

"President Barack Obama, under pressure to respond to rising gas prices, proposed a basket of ideas for reducing U.S. dependence on oil...

Mr. Obama didn't offer specifics on how he would pay for various new tax breaks and subsidies outlined in a speech at Georgetown University."

Obama Outlines Energy Plan - WSJ.com

If someone is making more than $250,000 a year, they are not hurting.

you're in no position to judge

apdst · Mar 30, 2011

Catawba said:
"Some industries would benefit from the president's budget. Obama's proposal to immediately spend $50 billion on upgrading the nation's transportation infrastructure would result in more jobs for the hard-hit construction industry."

"The renewable-energy industry would benefit from tax incentives and increased spending on federal research. The budget encourages innovation in general by calling for a permanent, more robust tax credit for research and development."

"Plus, Obama proposed a permanent extension of a tax break that's designed to encourage investment in small businesses. Under this proposal, investors who buy stock in small corporations and hold it for five years would not have to pay capital gains taxes when they sell the stock."
BRIEFS: Obama's 2012 budget mixed bag for business obamas-2012-budget-mixed-bag-for-business

A family of 4 that makes 30 grand is barely above poverty. Like I said you can't get blood from a turnip.

They are working full-time. Perhaps we need to start paying wages that leave enough after survival expenses to pay more in taxes.

What policies would that be? The rate of unemployment is less now than it was before he took office.

From your article:

Many businesses, however, would see higher taxes. The president wants to raise $46 billion over the next 10 years by eliminating 12 tax breaks for oil, gas and coal companies. This would increase energy costs, said Dorothy Coleman, senior vice president of the National Association of Manufacturers. That's a problem for manufacturers, since they consume one-third of the nation's energy.

Most small businesses don't pay corporate taxes; their profits flow through to their owners and are subject to individual income taxes. Wealthier small-business owners would face higher taxes under Obama's plan. The president wants to let income tax rates go up in 2013 for families that make $250,000 or more. Family-owned businesses could face higher estate taxes - the president said he thinks the 35 percent rate in effect for the next two years is too low.

The president's plan also would partially revive a paperwork burden on small businesses created by health-care reform. That law requires businesses that pay $600 or more a year to any other business to file a 1099 report with the Internal Revenue Service beginning in 2012. That's a major expansion of current 1099 reporting requirements, which now apply only to payments to unincorporated service providers.

So...um...where's the part about taxes being cut for small businesses? All I see in his plan, are more taxes and more overhead.

Please, show me where the good parts are.

drz-400 · Mar 30, 2011

Catawba said:
Our social safety net programs benefit everyone by keeping our old folks and the sick from living in the streets, or in prisons

fair enough.

If someone is making more than $250,000 a year, they are not hurting.

Agreed, which is why I would say many who are in the upper MIDDLE CLASS are not being hurt by these tax policies.

Now compare that with cost of living increase since 1980 and you will see that the lowest 20% has declined in standard of living, while the upper classes have prospered.

"In 2007, when the world was on the brink of financial crisis, U.S. income inequality hit its highest mark since 1928, just before the Great Depression."
How American Income Inequality Hit Levels Not Seen Since The Depression

I used real 2009 dollars to adjust for cost of living. Plus, that does not account for the increased in standard of living brought about by new technologies, more efficient designs, etc. How many people 20 years ago had a flat screen tv, how many middle class (even poor) people do now? How many had a personal computer? How many cars were fuel injected? There is little doubt in my mind that life is much easier now than it was 20 or 30 years ago.

As for inequality and financial crisis, yes there does appear to be a link. That would be another reason to oppose extreme inequality. However, that would not be because poor people are getting poorer and rich people are getting richer. Inequality does mean that one group is gaining or losing faster than another, but it does not imply that there necessarily has to be a loser. The rich could gain very quickly while the poor gained more slowly, thus raising everyone in the process.

TurtleDude · Mar 30, 2011

lpast said:
You can bet that the corporate interests will use this to push for the FAIR tax which is anything but fair...its all about reducing taxs for the rich

that is fair-the rich pay too much
most voters pay too little which is why they tolerate more and more government-they don't have to pay for it

TurtleDude · Mar 30, 2011

Simon W. Moon said:
Artificial persons should not be allowed to lobby our govt

artificial persons shouldn't be taxed either

TurtleDude · Mar 30, 2011

Baralis said:
I have often heard from folk that we should raise taxes on the wealthy to help cover the deficet. I believe that before we go rasining taxes on those already heavily taxed that we should fix all the loopholes that many of the wealthy exploit to avoid paying their share.

the rich pay more than their fair share. at least 47% are not paying their fair share

fair share-divide the government expenses among each citizen-that is your fair share-if you pay more than you are paying more than your fair share-less, and you are not. wanna bet most rich people pay 10X more than their fair share while the poor and most of the middle class do not

TurtleDude · Mar 30, 2011

SheWolf said:
When Obama tried to let the Bush tax cuts expire, it was your party that fought against it like it was the end of the world....

that would only encourage the majority to push for higher spending

Ikari · Mar 30, 2011

apdst said:
Please, show me where the good parts are.

It will destroy small business, thus benefiting the corporations and eliminating competition against them. Duh.

Catawba · Mar 30, 2011

drz-400 said:
Agreed, which is why I would say many who are in the upper MIDDLE CLASS are not being hurt by these tax policies.

Click to expand...

I never had any worries for the upper middle class as they have been enjoying greatly reduced taxes for 30 years.

I used real 2009 dollars to adjust for cost of living. Plus, that does not account for the increased in standard of living brought about by new technologies, more efficient designs, etc. How many people 20 years ago had a flat screen tv, how many middle class (even poor) people do now? How many had a personal computer? How many cars were fuel injected? There is little doubt in my mind that life is much easier now than it was 20 or 30 years ago.

Click to expand...

Thanks for you opinion.

As for inequality and financial crisis, yes there does appear to be a link. That would be another reason to oppose extreme inequality. However, that would not be because poor people are getting poorer and rich people are getting richer. Inequality does mean that one group is gaining or losing faster than another, but it does not imply that there necessarily has to be a loser. The rich could gain very quickly while the poor gained more slowly, thus raising everyone in the process.

Click to expand...

So you are satisfied with $113 growth over 3 decades, with one and seven poor and more and more of the middle class sliding into the lower class, while those that make over $1 million get a tax decrease of $93,000 a year on average? That is what you call fair?

apdst · Mar 30, 2011

Ikari said:
It will destroy small business, thus benefiting the corporations and eliminating competition against them. Duh.

Thereby making it easier for the government to control the private sector. I've already figured that one out.

The Prof · Mar 30, 2011

Catawba said:
I never had any worries for the upper middle class

few care what you do or don't have worries for

by the way, tax hikes, here in reality, are OFF THE TABLE

dream on, mr mitty

Lord Tammerlain · Mar 30, 2011

The Prof said:
few care what you do or don't have worries for

by the way, tax hikes, here in reality, are OFF THE TABLE

dream on, mr mitty

Realistically tax hikes are not off the table

They are unavoidable in the US

In no way shape or form will the US be able to cut enough from its budgets to clear the deficits without some tax hikes as well

The Prof · Mar 30, 2011

Obama signs tax deal into law - CNN

apdst · Mar 31, 2011

Lord Tammerlain said:
Realistically tax hikes are not off the table

They are unavoidable in the US

In no way shape or form will the US be able to cut enough from its budgets to clear the deficits without some tax hikes as well

That means we'll need to stop subsidizing multi-million dollar green energy money pits. Lower the earned income credit. Stop with dumbass policies that kill jobs and lower tax revenues. That would bring in gazillions, alone, not tomention if we stop idiotic crap like Cash for Clunkers and funding million dollar trips to China to scope out dinosaur eggs.

There's lots we can do without raising taxes.

Catawba · Mar 31, 2011

apdst said:
That means we'll need to stop subsidizing multi-million dollar green energy money pits. Lower the earned income credit. Stop with dumbass policies that kill jobs and lower tax revenues. That would bring in gazillions, alone, not tomention if we stop idiotic crap like Cash for Clunkers and funding million dollar trips to China to scope out dinosaur eggs.

In other words, return to the same failed policies that brought us to the greatest recession since the great depression?

There's lots we can do without raising taxes.

Such as?

apdst · Mar 31, 2011

Catawba said:
In other words, return to the same failed policies that brought us to the greatest recession since the great depression?

Government funded bull**** projects are going to fix the economy?

Such as?

Stop wasting money on bull****. Ending the Child Tax Credit would be a great start.

upsideguy · Mar 31, 2011

apdst said:
You realize that when bog businesses get across the board tax cuts, those same tax cuts apply to small businesses, as well; and vice versa when taxes are raised?

In that case, we need to start making the people who never pay taxes kick in and anty up.

Actually your first point is not true... the substantial reason the big business does not pay taxes is they Internationalize their tax posture, literally off-shoring profits through very elaborate cost and revenue allocation schemes created to show little to no US domestic income. These schemes are designed by their large cadre of tax lawyers and accountants and outside consultants. Small businesses are often not global, had have less tax planning resource with which to work. Total tax revenue paid by corporations has been dropping dramatically over the past 30 years, and the corporate tax burden that remains is largely paid by small and mid-sized domestic corporations.

So yes, we need to start making those that never pay taxes kick in and ante up, as income based taxes are paid by every individual in one form or another, but not by the largest multi-national corporations, we need a corporate minimum tax....

apdst · Mar 31, 2011

upsideguy said:
Actually your first point is not true... the substantial reason the big business does not pay taxes is they Internationalize their tax posture, literally off-shoring profits through very elaborate cost and revenue allocation schemes created to show little to no US domestic income. These schemes are designed by their large cadre of tax lawyers and accountants and outside consultants. Small businesses are often not global, had have less tax planning resource with which to work. Total tax revenue paid by corporations has been dropping dramatically over the past 30 years, and the corporate tax burden that remains is largely paid by small and mid-sized domestic corporations.

So yes, we need to start making those that never pay taxes kick in and ante up, as income based taxes are paid by every individual in one form or another, but not by the largest multi-national corporations, we need a corporate minimum tax....

How do you propose that work?

Catawba · Mar 31, 2011

apdst said:
Government funded bull**** projects are going to fix the economy?

Click to expand...

Without affordable energy options, a well educated future generation, a decrease in our national debt, and a healthy environment, the economy can only get worse over the long-term.

Stop wasting money on bull****. Ending the Child Tax Credit would be a great start.

Click to expand...

I agree we need to stop wasting money but making things harder on the poor is not going to solve our problems. We have to look at where the big wastes are, the biggest our unending war to keep the oil flowing from the Middle East, and the tax cuts to the top tax class.

apdst · Mar 31, 2011

Catawba said:
Without affordable energy options, a well educated future generation, a decrease in our national debt, and a healthy environment, the economy can only get worse over the long-term.

Better stick with petroleum and open up domestic drilling. Green energy costs too much and to inefficient.

I agree we need to stop wasting money but making things harder on the poor is not going to solve our problems. We have to look at where the big wastes are, the biggest our unending war to keep the oil flowing from the Middle East, and the tax cuts to the top tax class.

We can start using our own resources and stop importing so much foriegn oil. Spening more money anabling poor people to remain poor isn't the answer. As long as people don't have to go to work to get a paycheck, then guess what they're going to do. I think people like yourself should donate more of your money to the poor and stop killing my paycheck to do so.

William Rea · Mar 31, 2011

The Prof said:
why would you presume that folks care what you do or don't embrace

the ruling class, presumably, includes president obama

he CAVED

mature americans care about that

party on, pugilist

You cared enough to respond to it?

Yes, I would consider that Obama is ruling class.

The Prof · Mar 31, 2011

William Rea said:
I would consider that Obama is ruling class.

would you?

how interesting

and what would you consider 2 + 2 to be

G.E.’s Strategies Let It Avoid Taxes Altogether

drz-400

Catawba

Disappointed Evolutionist

Catawba

Disappointed Evolutionist

The Prof

apdst

drz-400

TurtleDude

warrior of the wetlands

TurtleDude

warrior of the wetlands

TurtleDude

warrior of the wetlands

TurtleDude

warrior of the wetlands

Ikari

Catawba

Disappointed Evolutionist

apdst

The Prof

Lord Tammerlain

The Prof

apdst

Catawba

Disappointed Evolutionist

apdst

upsideguy

Pragmatic Idealist

apdst

Catawba

Disappointed Evolutionist

apdst

William Rea

The Prof