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Who's in hell? Pastor's book sparks eternal debate

justabubba said:
it is posts like this which cause me concern
the young forum member is bright and articulate
yet an otherwise objective person is able to hold such a certaintude about a topic about which no one can be certain
to me, this is the cause of much political strife in our world, at present, in the past, and if that belief in certainty does not change, in the future
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I am certain in my faith. Because I am certain I take my faith very seriously. What causes me concern is how people do not recognize their need t be forgiven of sin or believe that all roads lead to heaven and salvation. Christianity is absolute truth, and part of that truth is that all who do not repent of sin and believe in Christ will be judged and have to be sent to hell for their sin. It's a hard thing to accept, and that is why I think so many people want to wishfully deny the existence of hell or acknowledge their need for forgiveness or even the Love that was shown to them on the cross when Jesus as God in human form chose to atone for everyone's sin and forgive any sin if we only ask Him and believe in Him.
 
digsbe said:
Anyone who has not been forgiven of sin will be sent to hell because of those sins.
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And since Jesus died for everyone, everyone is forgiven, and no one is going to hell....except for anyone who doesn't believe as I do.
 
Jerry said:
And since Jesus died for everyone, everyone is forgiven, and no one is going to hell....except for anyone who doesn't believe as I do.
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Jesus died for everyone's sin, but not everyone is forgiven because they don't repent.
 
digsbe said:
Jesus died for everyone's sin, but not everyone is forgiven because they don't repent.
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You don't have to repent. Romans is pretty clear on that. All you have to do is the right things and it doesn't matter if you were an atheist your whole life.

oh, and you're going to hell.
 
Jerry said:
You don't have to repent. Romans is pretty clear on that. All you have to do is the right things and it doesn't matter if you were an atheist your whole life.

oh, and you're going to hell.
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I think the Bible is extremely clear that you do have to repent, and that being good can't atone for sin. Jesus Himself said that many will be before Him and sent to hell for their sin even though they have claimed to follow Christ and did some good things. What matters is sin, and only Christ can remove and forgive sin. Our works and "goodness" cannot save us.
 
digsbe said:
What matters is sin, and only Christ can remove and forgive sin. Our works and "goodness" cannot save us.
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Now I'm supposed to be taking a break from DP.

But I'm really inspired to ask.

This is a purely philosophical question.

If a lets say, Athiest spends his whole life working for AID agencies, helping starving children in Africa. Seflessly. But never accepts Christ, he goes to hell for that?

And a dude in Oklohama spends his whole life doing nothing. But accepts christ, and asks for forgiveness. He will go to heaven?
 
digsbe said:
I think the Bible is extremely clear that you do have to repent, and that being good can't atone for sin. Jesus Himself said that many will be before Him and sent to hell for their sin even though they have claimed to follow Christ and did some good things. What matters is sin, and only Christ can remove and forgive sin. Our works and "goodness" cannot save us.
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I don't think you're getting it. If you're otherwise living the righteous life, you are deemed "righteous" in the eyes of God.

Kneeling and making a prayer for forgiveness is not required.
 
Jetboogieman said:
Now I'm supposed to be taking a break from DP.

But I'm really inspired to ask.

This is a purely philosophical question.

If a lets say, Athiest spends his whole life working for AID agencies, helping starving children in Africa. Seflessly. But never accepts Christ, he goes to hell for that?

And a dude in Oklohama spends his whole life doing nothing. But accepts christ, and asks for forgiveness. He will go to heaven?
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Obviously. It's the first and greatest commandment, it says so in the text. So all else is salvation fail if you don't honour it. Getting into heaven isn't about hard work and personal cost necessarily, it's about following the rules.
 
Jetboogieman said:
Now I'm supposed to be taking a break from DP.

But I'm really inspired to ask.

This is a purely philosophical question.

If a lets say, Athiest spends his whole life working for AID agencies, helping starving children in Africa. Seflessly. But never accepts Christ, he goes to hell for that?

And a dude in Oklohama spends his whole life doing nothing. But accepts christ, and asks for forgiveness. He will go to heaven?
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According to one of the Catholic priests who taught me in high school - yes. He told us that "good" works do nothing for you if you don't accept Christ (even if you are the kindest, most charitable person in the world). In his words, "You can be the most loving person in the world, but if you don't accept Christ and repent, you're going straight to the flames."

On the other hand, if you accept Jesus and repent, then you can do whatever you want and go straight to Heaven.

He didn't do a very good job of selling the religion.
 
Councilman said:
God's word is infallible, but I don't know about anyone else but I have never heard the words of God. All I have ever heard are the words in the Bible written by people many years after the fact, or by Priests or Pastors based on what they read in the Bible and then interpret.

The Bible needs to be taken as a guide line with general rules and metaphors for us to live by.

If we did nothing else we would live by the Golden Rule which is the same in at least 21 religions that I an aware of.

Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

If we all did this we would see an end to war murder all fighting etc.

Some things I know to be true and others i just believe.

I died for several minutes in 1984 and had an OBE in connection with the NDE so I know there is more after this life is over.

I also know that we can have Hell right here on earth, because I have lived it, when I let things others did get to me until I remembered that Christ Jesus died for my sins and made it possible for me see there is more out there for me if I trust in him and not let the sins of others affect what I do and feel.

A Priest and a Pastor who refuse to celebrate in the joining of two hearts have missed the point of Christianity and are judging rather than embracing it with the love Jesus would have.

I am not extremely religious, however I consider myself to be Spiritual and open to most everything.

We need to read the Bible and always ask what is it saying, because it's not to be taken work for word or we end up Radicals. Also I believe the New Testament was created as a reform because if you have read the whole Bible you know there was a major shift in attitude from the old to the new Testaments.

One used threats and intimidation and the New uses Love and welcoming to gain compliance.

Sorry to go on so long but this is what I believe.
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I believe the Bible is the Word of God, and therefore infallible. I believe those that have studied, translated, re-translated, interpreted, preached, listened and re-studied are but mere mortals. Each limited in knowledge and understanding and inherently corruptible. In other words, the Bible is correct; our understanding of it is flawed.

2 Timothy 3:16:

New International Version (©1984)
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

New Living Translation (©2007)
All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right.

That all said, in my studies, I find the conventional understanding of Hell as not really being particularly based on the Bible, but rather handed down through the ages by the Roman Catholic church more in line with Dante's Inferno. Though one can construct the Roman Catholic version out of certain passages, they also can be interpreted to support the notion that the sinner dies an eternal death (the concept that wages of sin are death is very clear), while the saved enjoy eternal life in the Kingdom. I think its human nature for us Christians to think that our denial of some things that others engage in will be rewarded and they will be punished, but that is our warped view of fairness, not necessarily God's.

While you are in the Word rebuking my construct of Hell, also show me where it talks about going to Heaven immediately after death, another common view that really has very sketchy, at best, biblical support....and far more passages that completely refute this construct.
 
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Last time I checked, only God can judge. This pastor is committing blasphemy, big time.
 
It's the same god, and people aren't perfect. I think god knows we can be mislead, so if one church is misled (and most probably are), then I don't think it's an unforgivable sin.
 
digsbe said:
I think the Bible is extremely clear that you do have to repent, and that being good can't atone for sin. Jesus Himself said that many will be before Him and sent to hell for their sin even though they have claimed to follow Christ and did some good things. What matters is sin, and only Christ can remove and forgive sin. Our works and "goodness" cannot save us.
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Isn't repenting the Catholic view?
 
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It's funny you bring this up Dan, because I have been thinking about this. I date somebody whom is Jewish, but I am not Jewish.

My boyfriend has taught a few things about the Jewish faith that I didn't know, however, I have always known that they don't marry outside the religion. He says he isn't that religious now, which I believe. He has tattoos, works Sabbath, doesn't go to synagogue... but I still wonder if it's going to be a problem eventually like it was for you and your wife.
 
Moderator's Warning:
Jerry is banned from this thread. Any additional posts from Jerry will result in a 5 point DBAJ infraction for each post.
 
it's a shame jerry is forbidden from further contributions to this thread
i appreciated his unique take on this topic

a bit of irony here, recognizing that the op was about a methodist minister who was ejected from his congregation. that banishment resulted because he subscribed to a different view. that of another minister (Rob Bell) whose book, love wins, an advocacy of loving behavior, is found abhorrent by some followers of the Christian faith

why the avoidance of differing views, both in this thread and within the Christian church?. why the fear of unconventional thought?
 
SheWolf said:
It's funny you bring this up Dan, because I have been thinking about this. I date somebody whom is Jewish, but I am not Jewish.

My boyfriend has taught a few things about the Jewish faith that I didn't know, however, I have always known that they don't marry outside the religion. He says he isn't that religious now, which I believe. He has tattoos, works Sabbath, doesn't go to synagogue... but I still wonder if it's going to be a problem eventually like it was for you and your wife.
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I think it is rather unfortunate that Christians are not in better touch with their Jewish roots (a general statement, not citing you, just the prevailing wisdom). It seems too many Christians read only the New Testament or subscribe to the notion that somehow the Jews missed the bus (the significance of Christ) and that Christians are now the chosen people. I don't think this is at all biblical. Remember, Christians have been grafted on to the vine of God's chosen people. In the New Covenant, the promise of eternal life was expanded to include the Gentiles. In Paul’s letter to the Ephesians 3 (and also Ephesians 2) speaks to much of this:

Ephesians 2:

11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Ephesians 3:

1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles—
2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

There are other passages throughout the Bible (old and new) that speak to the fact that all Jews will not have their eyes open to the Messiah, but that their blindness will not damn them to eternal death.

I think if Christians truly understood their place in God's plan, we would have a much better kinship with our Jewish brothers and sisters.
 
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digsbe said:
Anyone who has not been forgiven of sin will be sent to hell because of those sins. The only way to be forgiven is to repent before God. Jesus is the only one who can forgive sin, thus everyone but repentant and forgiven Christians will go to hell. God's love and Grace is strong enough to forgive any sin, however in order to be forgiven we must repent and believe in Jesus and the sacrifice He made. Only God and the individual knows if they are saved, so it's not our place to judge. However, all others will go to hell for their unforgiven sins because their sins prevent them from being in God's Presence and demand judgement. I do believe that this pastor should have been fired.
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I used to believe that, too. What a horrible system!
 
whysoserious said:
Clearly only those who kneel before His Holiness the Flying Spaghetti Monster are the ones who make it to heaven. Anyone who has not been touched by His Noodly Apendage is for sure to taste eternal damnation!
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I really don't like this post. Philosophical questions like the one in the OP is what ultimately led me away from Christianity, but I still have many practicing Christians among my friend and family, and I would never disrespect their beliefs in this way. How can you successfully make a point when you casually belittle the most cherished beliefs of the people you're debating?

And besides, you're just plain wrong. Whatever your take on faith and reason, there is no doubt that God is active in human society. As a cultural concept, God is a powerful force, if only by virtue of the vast numbers of people who embrace him. Meanwhile, no one has ever given a dime to charity because the "flying spaghetti monster" compelled him to. You ignore the good works done in God's name and look down on people who profess to value charity, humility and love.
 
SheWolf said:
It's funny you bring this up Dan, because I have been thinking about this. I date somebody whom is Jewish, but I am not Jewish.

My boyfriend has taught a few things about the Jewish faith that I didn't know, however, I have always known that they don't marry outside the religion. He says he isn't that religious now, which I believe. He has tattoos, works Sabbath, doesn't go to synagogue... but I still wonder if it's going to be a problem eventually like it was for you and your wife.
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My mother did. She married my father, who was an Irish Catholic who converted to Protestant. LOL. Later in life, she studied Buddhism, and meditated a lot.

Lucky me. Look at all the religions I can call myself. LOL. :mrgreen: But seriously, I think I will just worship God, and leave the religions to all those people who like to kill each other over it.
 
Jetboogieman said:
Now I'm supposed to be taking a break from DP.

But I'm really inspired to ask.

This is a purely philosophical question.

If a lets say, Athiest spends his whole life working for AID agencies, helping starving children in Africa. Seflessly. But never accepts Christ, he goes to hell for that?

And a dude in Oklohama spends his whole life doing nothing. But accepts christ, and asks for forgiveness. He will go to heaven?
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The atheist who spend his life working for aid agencies would go to hell. It's his sins that send him there, not his good works that get him into heaven.

The guy in Oklahoma would go to heaven if he has truly repented. However I find it hard that he would do nothing if he has truly repented and claims to follow the teachings of Christ.
SheWolf said:
Isn't repenting the Catholic view?
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I'm not sure, I'm not Catholic. However, repenting is the Biblical view.
GhostlyJoe said:
I used to believe that, too. What a horrible system!
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How is it horrible? A Loving and Just God chose to suffer as a human and die for your sin so that you may escape the fate that you brought upon yourself?
 
digsbe said:
How is it horrible? A Loving and Just God chose to suffer as a human and die for your sin so that you may escape the fate that you brought upon yourself?
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That's not the horrible part. The horrible part is eternal damnation for failing to adhere to cultural norms.

For example, a devout, born-and-raised Buddhist who lives a righteous life but rejects a Christian missionary's take on the afterlife is damned under such a system. Now, as a former Christian, if a Buddhist missionary had come up to me with his message of peace, I would have rejected him outright. Why? Because I was raised a Christian, and I believed in Christianity. Of course, the difference is that the Buddhist wouldn't damn my soul to endless hellfire on that basis.
 
GhostlyJoe said:
That's not the horrible part. The horrible part is eternal damnation for failing to adhere to cultural norms.

For example, a devout, born-and-raised Buddhist who lives a righteous life but rejects a Christian missionary's take on the afterlife is damned under such a system. Now, as a former Christian, if a Buddhist missionary had come up to me with his message of peace, I would have rejected him outright. Why? Because I was raised a Christian, and I believed in Christianity. Of course, the difference is that the Buddhist wouldn't damn my soul to endless hellfire on that basis.
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There is an irony here. The Bible frequently mentions hell as an "outer darkness", in which you are nothing. Buddhists meditate so that they may become "nothing" in the afterlife. So, ironically, both Christians and Buddhists will get what they desire, if they stick to their religions. LOL.
 
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