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Thread: Bomb explodes at Jerusalem bus stop; 25 wounded

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    Re: Bomb explodes at Jerusalem bus stop; 25 wounded

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Ok, what do you see it biases to be?
    The bias comes from sentences like this:

    Israeli police blamed Palestinian militants, calling the blast a "terrorist" attack.
    Putting terrorist in quotes, as though it's something else, that, and similar sentences are the bias.


    roll your eyes all you want, fact is fact.
    It was ridiculous partisanship that has no bearing on the discussion.
    That in itself is just the first sign....but you know that already and are employing a rather transparent tactic....It should be named the "Wha....? Nooooo...." tactic. A fallacy. now if you really want to talk about the despicable act that some Palestinian carried out on innocents then by all means, but at least find a fair article to start from.


    j-mac
    Sorry, what fallacy am I committing? And are you denying it was the first terrorist attack in several years in Jerusalem? That the statement wasn't anything but a fact?
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    Re: Bomb explodes at Jerusalem bus stop; 25 wounded

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Then according to you people shouldn't throw the label murderer either at people who deliberately kill innocent people, and instead we should treat them the same as we do with people who accidently cause the deaths of other people. For example, a person who crashed into another person's car and killed him in a road accident will be called the same as a person who sneaks into a person's house and murders him with multiple knife stabs as he's sleeping.

    Admit it, there is no logic to your claims here that there is no difference between terrorism and an accidental cause of death during war. It's merely because of a radical political agenda that you choose to promote such illogical claims to begin with.
    Did I say anything about treating people? The Law clearly says what are the sentences for "1st degree Murder", "2nd degree Murder", "manslaughter", "self defence" etc. If the court found that it's "murder", then I would say its "murder" since that's the correct legal term. It's illogical to claim that it's anything else when relating the conviction. Before that isn't it better to use the term "kill" or "attack" since they describe exactly what happens.

    The term "murder" is also being used as an emotional label by the pro-life to attack the pro-choice.

    "Terrorism" also has its legal definition, but as it's used by most people, it's an emotional term to label "them" from "us". We know American courts have convicted people of terrorism associated with 911 and we all agree with it, not saying it can happen or that I would want it to happen, but what if American pilots were held to trial in an Iraqi Court and found guilty of "terrorism"? Would any of us accept it? I highly doubt that.

    Talking about logic or the lack of one, nice try with the ad hominem, what "radical political agenda" do I have?
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: Bomb explodes at Jerusalem bus stop; 25 wounded

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    Did I say anything about treating people? The Law clearly says what are the sentences for "1st degree Murder", "2nd degree Murder", "manslaughter", "self defence" etc. If the court found that it's "murder", then I would say its "murder" since that's the correct legal term. It's illogical to claim that it's anything else when relating the conviction. Before that isn't it better to use the term "kill" or "attack" since they describe exactly what happens.

    The term "murder" is also being used as an emotional label by the pro-life to attack the pro-choice.

    "Terrorism" also has its legal definition, but as it's used by most people, it's an emotional term to label "them" from "us". We know American courts have convicted people of terrorism associated with 911 and we all agree with it, not saying it can happen or that I would want it to happen, but what if American pilots were held to trial in an Iraqi Court and found guilty of "terrorism"? Would any of us accept it? I highly doubt that.

    Talking about logic or the lack of one, nice try with the ad hominem, what "radical political agenda" do I have?
    Are you suggesting that there's any doubt that this was a terrorist attack?
    Because that would be answering your question in the last sentence quite perfectly so.
    I also don't remember when a court of law has decided that 9/11 was a terrorist attack, so does that mean according to you that it cannot be considered as such?
    Once more, simply admit that logic was not a factor in your choice to make those repulsive claims.
    Last edited by Apocalypse; 03-25-11 at 04:46 AM.
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    Re: Bomb explodes at Jerusalem bus stop; 25 wounded

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Are you suggesting that there's any doubt that this was a terrorist attack?
    I replied to a post about the use of the term "militants" as being a rationalisation. You chose to reply to my post, so I assume you have at least followed what it was in reply to.

    Because that would be answering your question in the last sentence quite perfectly so.
    It doesn't. So what "radical political agenda" do I have?

    I also don't remember when a court of law has decided that 9/11 was a terrorist attack, so does that mean according to you that it cannot be considered as such?
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    Once more, simply admit that logic was not a factor in your choice to make those repulsive claims.
    Once again you would rather depend on fallacy rather than using logic and fact to refute my arguements. To claim that "terrorism" is used as an emotional label is a "repulsive claim"? And you want to claim an upperhand on logic?
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: Bomb explodes at Jerusalem bus stop; 25 wounded

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    The bias comes from sentences like this:



    Putting terrorist in quotes, as though it's something else, that, and similar sentences are the bias.
    In reality it is accuracy. There is no universal definition of terrorism. Definitions of terrorism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The UN tried to find one for quite some time but was unable to.

    so, though you may see it as bias, in reality it is accuracy. As there is no universal legal definition of terrorism, it is accurate to put it in inverted commas.
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    Re: Bomb explodes at Jerusalem bus stop; 25 wounded

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    I replied to a post about the use of the term "militants" as being a rationalisation. You chose to reply to my post, so I assume you have at least followed what it was in reply to.



    It doesn't. So what "radical political agenda" do I have?
    You've claimed that terrorism is merely a term that is meant to classify people "we" (probably the West) believes are the bad guys. Thus you have clearly refused to recognize that terrorism does exist and that actions such as the one discussed in this thread are indeed acts of terrorism.

    I quote: "At the end of the day, labels like terrorists are meant to classify the "good guy" VS the "bad guy" to some people, once you see through it, they mean nothing."

    Disgusting.

    You also drew comparison betweeen collateral damage in a war and the deliberate take of life of uninvolved innocents for political causes (Terrorism) referring to "American bombing of civilians".

    So basically you're saying that as long as a person, an individual, is not caught and judged in a court of law and is found guilty for acts of terrorism or conspiring to commit acts of terrorism an action cannot be considered terrorism. And that's after you've claimed that terrorism is merely meant to classify the people we consider to be the bad guys. You don't seem to be decisive here.

    Once again you would rather depend on fallacy rather than using logic and fact to refute my arguements. To claim that "terrorism" is used as an emotional label is a "repulsive claim"? And you want to claim an upperhand on logic?
    Oh really? What fallacy was I engaging in?
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    Re: Bomb explodes at Jerusalem bus stop; 25 wounded

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    In reality it is accuracy. There is no universal definition of terrorism. Definitions of terrorism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The UN tried to find one for quite some time but was unable to.

    so, though you may see it as bias, in reality it is accuracy. As there is no universal legal definition of terrorism, it is accurate to put it in inverted commas.
    Indeed, but if they were questioning the accuracy of the statement, why not put "terrorist attack" in the inverted commas, rather than just the identifier of terrorist? And a search of the MSNBC site reveals that they don't use the inverted commas on any other articles.

    Terrorism deaths on increase - US news - Security - msnbc.com
    NBC News analysis of Islamic terrorism since Sept. 11, 2001, shows that attacks are on the rise worldwide — dramatically.
    Terrorism experts point in particular to the attacks apparently carried out by Chechen rebels during that 10-day period.
    Terrorism up in Afghanistan, Pakistan - World news - Terrorism - msnbc.com
    Yemen tense before "departure" protests versus Saleh - World news - Mideast/N. Africa - msnbc.com

    None of these articles about terrorism use the inverted commas.
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    Re: Bomb explodes at Jerusalem bus stop; 25 wounded

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    You've claimed that terrorism is merely a term that is meant to classify people "we" (probably the West) believes are the bad guys. Thus you have clearly refused to recognize that terrorism does exist and that actions such as the one discussed in this thread are indeed acts of terrorism.

    I quote: "At the end of the day, labels like terrorists are meant to classify the "good guy" VS the "bad guy" to some people, once you see through it, they mean nothing."

    Disgusting.

    You also drew comparison betweeen collateral damage in a war and the deliberate take of life of uninvolved innocents for political causes (Terrorism) referring to "American bombing of civilians".



    So basically you're saying that as long as a person, an individual, is not caught and judged in a court of law and is found guilty for acts of terrorism or conspiring to commit acts of terrorism an action cannot be considered terrorism. And that's after you've claimed that terrorism is merely meant to classify the people we consider to be the bad guys. You don't seem to be decisive here.
    I don't like to engage with people who do not care to read my post with honesty. If you prefer to twist my words rather than make actual arguements, you can enjoy it on your own.


    Oh really? What fallacy was I engaging in?
    Appeal to emotion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: Bomb explodes at Jerusalem bus stop; 25 wounded

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    I don't like to engage with people who do not care to read my post with honesty. If you prefer to twist my words rather than make actual arguements, you can enjoy it on your own.
    I was directly quoting your words, your decision to withdraw from them instead of standing for what you said merely points out that you too understand you were wrong. Fine with me.
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    Re: Bomb explodes at Jerusalem bus stop; 25 wounded

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    Indeed, but if they were questioning the accuracy of the statement, why not put "terrorist attack" in the inverted commas, rather than just the identifier of terrorist?
    I do not think anyone could deny it was an attack. Indeed the BBC wrongly reported this by saying that the attack was being blamed on 'militants'. Instead of putting inverted commas on the word 'terrorist' which would have looked somewhat daft on our tv screens, they changed the word. That does show a different orientation but whether that orientation is bias or lack of bias is a different question.

    We do not know who did this crime yet and no' terrorist' organisation has claimed responsibility though it seems to be generally felt it was not Hamas. At this stage if one wants to be totally unbiased, then it has to be said that the perpetrator of the crime is unknown. When said person or people are found we will know whether they belong to a terrorist organisation or are motivated by political ends. Till then it is just guesswork, so to say it is the activity of 'terrorism' though it may be accurate has not be shown to be the case. Judging things before evidence is found for a prosecution is not very different from vigilante activity. Look what happened in response to a recent such activity Max Blumenthal

    The paper avoided calling whoever did this terrorist. The reason they did it is unclear but some valid reasons would be
    1. that there is no universal definition of terrorism.
    2. Using the term 'terrorism' before a culprit or culprits has been found can itself be bias and give freedom for such activities as the above link.

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post

    And a search of the MSNBC site reveals that they don't use the inverted commas on any other articles.

    Terrorism deaths on increase - US news - Security - msnbc.com


    Terrorism up in Afghanistan, Pakistan - World news - Terrorism - msnbc.com
    Yemen tense before "departure" protests versus Saleh - World news - Mideast/N. Africa - msnbc.com

    None of these articles about terrorism use the inverted commas.
    There are groups who are Universally accepted as terrorist and when they have been found to have committed a crime, then clearly they are 'terrorist' crimes.
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