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Thread: Bomb explodes at Jerusalem bus stop; 25 wounded

  1. #31
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    Re: Bomb explodes at Jerusalem bus stop; 25 wounded

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    This is not good. There are always extreme elements who want to defeat the peace talks and this is how they do it. I hope the people injured recover and the people who did this are bought to justice.
    "And in the end, we were all just humans, drunk on the idea that love, only love, could heal our brokenness."

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    Re: Bomb explodes at Jerusalem bus stop; 25 wounded

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    You should look up the definition of "twaddle" while you are at it.
    Let's not pretend that it isn't true, or that the term "terrorist" is more honest. It only gets applied to groups that are the enemies of the US government. Rebels against Gaddafi? Brave freedom fighters. KLA violence against Serbs? Collateral damage in the struggle for democracy. Hamas attacks on Israelis? Evil terrorists!!!11

    There are atrocities from MANY militant groups. So spare us the "militant is just a PC term for terrorists" twaddle.
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    Re: Bomb explodes at Jerusalem bus stop; 25 wounded

    The guy I am seeing is going to Israel, and this is making me nervous for him....

  4. #34
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    Re: Bomb explodes at Jerusalem bus stop; 25 wounded

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Let's not pretend that it isn't true, or that the term "terrorist" is more honest. It only gets applied to groups that are the enemies of the US government. Rebels against Gaddafi? Brave freedom fighters. KLA violence against Serbs? Collateral damage in the struggle for democracy. Hamas attacks on Israelis? Evil terrorists!!!11

    There are atrocities from MANY militant groups. So spare us the "militant is just a PC term for terrorists" twaddle.
    You are just playing the extreme relativism game. I find this sort of convenient relativism very sophomoric.

    Terrorism has a meaning, and unlike your silly claims, the meaning is not dependent upon who is committing violence, but upon the nature and target of the violence. If a group attacks a military target, they are engaged in guerilla warfare. If they attack civilians because they are civilians, they are engaging in terrorism.

    As to my original point, however, just because you make up your own meanings, that does not make such meanings valid. Here are some various definitions for the word "Militant"


    define:militant - Google Search

    Now, you may wish to conflate that with terrorism in order to rationalize and normalize terrorism, but why you would do that is anybody's guess.
    Last edited by Gardener; 03-23-11 at 01:37 PM.
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  5. #35
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    Re: Bomb explodes at Jerusalem bus stop; 25 wounded

    A 59 year old woman had died from her wounds and there are 3 more injured who are fighting for their lives out of a total of 40 wounded civilians.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

  6. #36
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    Re: Bomb explodes at Jerusalem bus stop; 25 wounded

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    I strongly disagree. Inaction would lead to a further erosion in deterrence and an increase in the frequency and magnitude of terrorist activity.
    What is the purpose of this kind of attack? It can't be a coincidence that it occurred just as reconciliation talks are beginning between Hamas and Fatah, and just as the Arab Spring has reached Gaza. The people who ordered this attack (probably Hamas, but maybe one of Palestine's smaller terrorist groups) know perfectly well that they aren't going to bring down the State of Israel by blowing up a bus here and there.

    The purpose of this attack is to invite an Israeli response. That's the sole goal of it. Why give them what they want?

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1
    Hamas has likely calculated that Israel's domestic political challenges (internal infighting in Israel's government, weak coalition, corruption trials, worries about external regional developments, etc.) makes a strong Israeli response less likely. Hence, by those calculations Hamas believes that the cost-benefit calculus is a little more favorable. It is exploiting what it sees as an opportunity. In general, as long as a would-be aggressor believes that its target cannot or will not respond sufficiently strongly--even if the target can or would respond strongly--it won't be deterred from carrying out acts of aggression.
    The "cost/benefit calculus" to which you refer doesn't make any sense if they aren't expecting an Israeli response, because there *is* no benefit to Hamas. A bus full of dead Jews doesn't get them anything material. Give Hamas a little more credit than that. They're violent, but they're just as adept in realpolitik as anyone in the Middle East.

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1
    Hamas' calculations appear to be evolving along those lines. The recent attacks (barrage of rockets and now the bombing in Jerusalem) are efforts to probe Israel's response to a variety of terrorist attacks. While a Cast Lead-scale operation is not needed, Israel needs to respond with enough force to fundamentally alter Hamas' current calculations in order to re-establish deterence. Otherwise, Hamas will incrementally ratchet up its attacks, and down the road another military operation on the scale of Cast Lead (or even larger if Hamas gains access to more destructive weaponry) would be required. That would be bad for Israel and for Gaza's residents who are trapped in a territory controlled by the Hamas terrorist organization. Re-establishing deterrence would be in the mutual benefit of Israel's people and Gaza's residents.
    What you've completely overlooked is the fact that Gazans are taking to the streets in protest of Hamas' rule, and/or in demand that they reconcile with the Fatah. This is the biggest challenge to their authority in several years. Now is hardly the time to be "probing Israel's response to a variety of terrorist attacks" unless they WANT to get a strong response.
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  7. #37
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    Re: Bomb explodes at Jerusalem bus stop; 25 wounded

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    yeah, i realize that now.......

    i was infracted very recently so i'm sensitive. poor me!
    I know how it feels, a certain mod is using me for his personal bop bag.
    Last edited by SgtRock; 03-23-11 at 09:58 PM.
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    Re: Bomb explodes at Jerusalem bus stop; 25 wounded

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    I strongly disagree. Inaction would lead to a further erosion in deterrence and an increase in the frequency and magnitude of terrorist activity.

    Hamas has likely calculated that Israel's domestic political challenges (internal infighting in Israel's government, weak coalition, corruption trials, worries about external regional developments, etc.) makes a strong Israeli response less likely. Hence, by those calculations Hamas believes that the cost-benefit calculus is a little more favorable. It is exploiting what it sees as an opportunity. In general, as long as a would-be aggressor believes that its target cannot or will not respond sufficiently strongly--even if the target can or would respond strongly--it won't be deterred from carrying out acts of aggression.

    Hamas' calculations appear to be evolving along those lines. The recent attacks (barrage of rockets and now the bombing in Jerusalem) are efforts to probe Israel's response to a variety of terrorist attacks. While a Cast Lead-scale operation is not needed, Israel needs to respond with enough force to fundamentally alter Hamas' current calculations in order to re-establish deterence. Otherwise, Hamas will incrementally ratchet up its attacks, and down the road another military operation on the scale of Cast Lead (or even larger if Hamas gains access to more destructive weaponry) would be required. That would be bad for Israel and for Gaza's residents who are trapped in a territory controlled by the Hamas terrorist organization. Re-establishing deterrence would be in the mutual benefit of Israel's people and Gaza's residents.

    Being hit by rockets are good for the Gaza residents? Or for the Israelis resident within the range of the "retaliatory" strike back by the Palestinians?
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: Bomb explodes at Jerusalem bus stop; 25 wounded

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    You are just playing the extreme relativism game. I find this sort of convenient relativism very sophomoric.

    Terrorism has a meaning, and unlike your silly claims, the meaning is not dependent upon who is committing violence, but upon the nature and target of the violence. If a group attacks a military target, they are engaged in guerilla warfare. If they attack civilians because they are civilians, they are engaging in terrorism.

    As to my original point, however, just because you make up your own meanings, that does not make such meanings valid. Here are some various definitions for the word "Militant"


    define:militant - Google Search

    Now, you may wish to conflate that with terrorism in order to rationalize and normalize terrorism, but why you would do that is anybody's guess.

    Saying it's done by "militants" doesn't lessen the impact of the killings. People who try to categorise the killings as "innocent" vs "collateral damage" are the ones trying to rationalise away the killings. America drops bombs that has killed thousand of innocents - to you that's war and collateral damage, to the family of those people, what's the difference between getting killed in their village VS in a bus to work? Why wouldn't they think Americans are the terrorists? At the end of the day, labels like terrorists are meant to classify the "good guy" VS the "bad guy" to some people, once you see through it, they mean nothing.
    Last edited by nonpareil; 03-23-11 at 11:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

  10. #40
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    Re: Bomb explodes at Jerusalem bus stop; 25 wounded

    Quote Originally Posted by SgtRock View Post
    I know how it feels, a certain mod is using me for his personal bop bag.
    That's a funny picture...

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