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Thread: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed Air

  1. #71
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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Well, I was.

    But fine. Okay. So you think killing is more stressful than dying. The military's training prepares you for the first. It doesn't do as much to prepare you for the second.
    On today's battlefield? Yes, I believe it is.

    I still believe that getting killed is more stressful than pulling the trigger. What exactly is your reasoning for believing the reverse?
    I guess honor would be the best explanation. I would rather lose my life on a battlefield, than spend the rest of my life in the stockade after I unknowingly committed a war crime.

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    ROEs are always hard to define even though the military does its best to, things like "you may always use lethal force in self defense" has room for interpretation. For example if you are a downed pilot and see what appears to be a group of people approaching you, some may be armed, does self defense include requesting bombs be dropped? After all if they are hostile allowing them to get closer compromises you're ability to fight or evade, and it may be a decision that costs you your life if you choose not to request the bombs. So you're ability to defend yourself is weakened. And of course the military allows for reasonable mistakes, for example an infantryman observes a kid running towards him with what appears to be an AK47, upon shooting and killing him he discovers it was just an air-soft rifle which looks exactly like an AK47. But if he hadn't shot the kid would have been in a good position to kill him if the rifle was real.

    So in the end an investigation must be conducted, there's no right answer to these questions and you can always think of different tricky situations and ask what if. I always tell my Soldiers to think, "if questioned can you defend your actions with absolute certainty." But of course there's not always certainty and sometimes you don't have a chance to think.

    But odds are the pilot received plenty of ROE briefs and probably acted within them so regardless if you think he was wrong the military will probably find no fault.

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Well, I was.

    But fine. Okay. So you think killing is more stressful than dying. The military's training prepares you for the first. It doesn't do as much to prepare you for the second. I still believe that getting killed is more stressful than pulling the trigger. What exactly is your reasoning for believing the reverse?
    If you are doing the deed, bask in the glory that is killing people that need killing without having to worry about going to trial. Embrace the hate. Enjoy the press of a fine trigger.

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    On today's battlefield? Yes, I believe it is.



    I guess honor would be the best explanation. I would rather lose my life on a battlefield, than spend the rest of my life in the stockade after I unknowingly committed a war crime.
    That's the first thing you've ever said on this forum that gives me a single ounce of respect for you. Color me slightly surprised, I can wholeheartedly agree with this.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    ROEs are always hard to define even though the military does its best to, things like "you may always use lethal force in self defense" has room for interpretation. For example if you are a downed pilot and see what appears to be a group of people approaching you, some may be armed, does self defense include requesting bombs be dropped? After all if they are hostile allowing them to get closer compromises you're ability to fight or evade, and it may be a decision that costs you your life if you choose not to request the bombs. So you're ability to defend yourself is weakened. And of course the military allows for reasonable mistakes, for example an infantryman observes a kid running towards him with what appears to be an AK47, upon shooting and killing him he discovers it was just an air-soft rifle which looks exactly like an AK47. But if he hadn't shot the kid would have been in a good position to kill him if the rifle was real.

    So in the end an investigation must be conducted, there's no right answer to these questions and you can always think of different tricky situations and ask what if. I always tell my Soldiers to think, "if questioned can you defend your actions with absolute certainty." But of course there's not always certainty and sometimes you don't have a chance to think.

    But odds are the pilot received plenty of ROE briefs and probably acted within them so regardless if you think he was wrong the military will probably find no fault.
    I agree. We'll see what the military has to say. Right now they are denying it even happened.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Well, I was.

    But fine. Okay. So you think killing is more stressful than dying. The military's training prepares you for the first. It doesn't do as much to prepare you for the second. I still believe that getting killed is more stressful than pulling the trigger. What exactly is your reasoning for believing the reverse?
    Killing is often more stressful than the thought you may die, because normally the enemy isn't in as good of a position to kill you as you are to kill him, so you don't have to worry as much about dying. And often you have at least a little time to think about your decision to kill or not and most of the time thats in a situation where you can kill him at any moment. For example a vehicle is approaching a check point and has ignored speed warnings and has some common indictators of a car bomb, VBIED, you are standing behind your machine gun or rifle, the car will reach you in say 30-45 seconds. You can kill the driver at any time but you still have those 30-45 seconds to stress about should I flash another warning, fire a warning shot, attempt to disable his vehicle, kill the driver? A lot of a different options and Soldiers are trained to show restraint, and naturally as humans, dont want to kill someone.

    AND you feel more guilty about shooting someone who has no chance of really killing you. If you're in a fire fight and someone is shooting at you, its much easier because you are directly and immediatly threatened, you don't have a choice to make about killing him. In the vehicle coming up to a checkpoint you are in less danger and aren't threatened at the moment, so you're calmer and can do a lot more thinking.

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I agree. We'll see what the military has to say. Right now they are denying it even happened.
    The question they have to answer is "Did the pilot have sufficient reason to believe if he did not act in a lethal manner his life would soon be immediately threatened or lost."

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Killing is often more stressful than the thought you may die, because normally the enemy isn't in as good of a position to kill you as you are to kill him, so you don't have to worry as much about dying. And often you have at least a little time to think about your decision to kill or not and most of the time thats in a situation where you can kill him at any moment. For example a vehicle is approaching a check point and has ignored speed warnings and has some common indictators of a car bomb, VBIED, you are standing behind your machine gun or rifle, the car will reach you in say 30-45 seconds. You can kill the driver at any time but you still have those 30-45 seconds to stress about should I flash another warning, fire a warning shot, attempt to disable his vehicle, kill the driver? A lot of a different options and Soldiers are trained to show restraint, and naturally as humans, dont want to kill someone.

    AND you feel more guilty about shooting someone who has no chance of really killing you. If you're in a fire fight and someone is shooting at you, its much easier because you are directly and immediatly threatened, you don't have a choice to make about killing him. In the vehicle coming up to a checkpoint you are in less danger and aren't threatened at the moment, so you're calmer and can do a lot more thinking.
    I agree with your scenarios. My original example was different, refer to post #55 which is kinda how this discussion got started and sidetracked.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  9. #79
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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    The question they have to answer is "Did the pilot have sufficient reason to believe if he did not act in a lethal manner his life would soon be immediately threatened or lost."
    I think that should be extended to the lives of the downed air crew as well, which makes things a bit more complicated.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 03-24-11 at 01:48 AM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    That's the first thing you've ever said on this forum that gives me a single ounce of respect for you. Color me slightly surprised, I can wholeheartedly agree with this.
    That's probably because you're just a ****ing kid and don't have near enough life experience to grasp most of the things I say.

    One day you may learn--as I did--that when your parents told you that, "children should be seen and not heard", that they were actually trying to teach you an important life lesson and not just being, "parents".

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