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Thread: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed Air

  1. #61
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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Or, hypothetically, instead of waiting they could have fired warning shots, or bracket them, to hold them off until they got close enough to tell who they were shooting at.
    You don't even know what bracket means, in relations to bringing fire to bear. Do you?

    Ultimately, none of us were there and don't know enough about the situation to armchair quarterback this thing. The crew of the gunship are among the best trained soldiers in the world and I believe they did what they thought was best and will accept their decision as the best decision for that particular scenario.

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    You're entitled to your own opinion. I disagree.
    My opinion is based on real world experience. And your's?

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    My opinion is based on real world experience. And your's?
    Really now, I hadn't realized you were both air cav AND a ground-pounder.

    My opinion is based on common sense. Potentially getting killed is more stressful than being able to kill someone else from the air with little danger to yourself. I'd like to see you refute that reasoning.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You don't even know what bracket means, in relations to bringing fire to bear. Do you?

    Ultimately, none of us were there and don't know enough about the situation to armchair quarterback this thing. The crew of the gunship are among the best trained soldiers in the world and I believe they did what they thought was best and will accept their decision as the best decision for that particular scenario.
    On that we agree.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    And just how stressful is such an environment? Different soldiers and troops face different situations. How would you even measure "halfway?" Is a trooper pinned down by suppressive fire from the enemy in the same "stressful environment" as an Apache pilot who can rain fire down onto the ground with impunity? People make tough life-and-death decisions every day. Troops certainly get it a lot worse than most but they are hardly the only ones.

    I disagree with the notion that the decisions and actions of troops are somehow untouchable because they operate in a stressful environment. Yes soldiers have it tough. Yes soldiers make mistakes. Yes, they're human. No, they shouldn't be immune from criticism.
    Stress is always a factor. I don't care who you are....Stress kills.

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Stress is always a factor. I don't care who you are....Stress kills.
    Don't have to tell me that...I'm 20 and I've had white hairs on my head since I was like 17 lol.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 03-24-11 at 01:22 AM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Really now, I hadn't realized you were both air cav AND a ground-pounder.

    My opinion is based on common sense. Potentially getting killed is more stressful than being able to kill someone else from the air with little danger to yourself. I'd like to see you refute that reasoning.
    Obviously, you haven't been paying attention, or you haven't been here long enough, or you never bother to actually ****ing ask. If any of those conditions exited, you would know that I never made any claim to being, "air cav".

    For the record and your future reference, I cut my teeth in the mechanized infantry as a Bradley Fighting Vehicle Crewman (11M). I spent a year as a straight leg grunt in Korea and 15 months in a division recon detachment (LRRP-D). Aside from that, I was a mounted infantryman, all the way. Hoohah?

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Obviously, you haven't been paying attention, or you haven't been here long enough, or you never bother to actually ****ing ask. If any of those conditions exited, you would know that I never made any claim to being, "air cav".

    For the record and your future reference, I cut my teeth in the mechanized infantry as a Bradley Fighting Vehicle Crewman (11M). I spent a year as a straight leg grunt in Korea and 15 months in a division recon detachment (LRRP-D). Aside from that, I was a mounted infantryman, all the way. Hoohah?
    If you had been paying attention you would have realized that that was a sarcastic statement. Now since it's apparent that you weren't a chopper pilot, where in your personal experience does it say being able to kill with impunity from the air is more stressful than getting pinned down and potentially getting killed?
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 03-24-11 at 01:26 AM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  9. #69
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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    If you had been paying attention you would have realized that that was a sarcastic statement. Now since it's apparent that you weren't a chopper pilot, where in your personal experience does it say being able to kill with impunity from the air is more stressful than getting pinned down and potentially getting killed?
    Never said anything about, "killing from the air". I was talking about killing, period.

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Never said anything about, "killing from the air". I was talking about killing, period.
    Well, I was.

    But fine. Okay. So you think killing is more stressful than dying. The military's training prepares you for the first. It doesn't do as much to prepare you for the second. I still believe that getting killed is more stressful than pulling the trigger. What exactly is your reasoning for believing the reverse?
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 03-24-11 at 01:32 AM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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