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Thread: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed Air

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    When you add the words "on purpose," you redeem yourself.



    If you kill a civilian on purpose, you're wrong and should be prosecuted by a military tribunal. If you kill a civilian by accident, although you will live with that for the rest of your life, your countrymen shouldn't judge you. Soldiers are not perfect. Accidents happen. Please don't try to turn our battlefields into, "I've got to call my lawyer first."
    I agree, but I personally think there is a distinction between accidents that are just plain unavoidable, and accidental killings that occur through negligence or carelessness. It's true that sometimes a soldier is forced to make a split-second decision, is forced to make a guess, and guesses wrong, and in such a case it is unfair to blame anyone. It's also entirely probable that sometimes accidental killings occur through rashness, an itchy trigger finger, and/or unsound decision-making.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 03-23-11 at 09:13 PM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I agree, but I personally think there is a distinction between accidents that are just plain unavoidable, and accidental killings that occur through negligence or carelessness. It's true that sometimes a soldier is forced to make a split-second decision, is forced to make a guess, and guesses wrong, and in such a case it is unfair to blame anyone. It's also entirely probable that sometimes accidental killings occur through rashness, an itchy trigger finger, and/or unsound decision-making.
    And who shall judge them? "Rashness...itchy trigger finger...unsound decision-making"

    Maybe I could understand if a fellow soldier called a soldier on it...but only then.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    And who shall judge them? "Rashness...itchy trigger finger...unsound decision-making"

    Maybe I could understand if a fellow soldier called a soldier on it...but only then.
    Well there's no video of this incident, and judging by your earlier post the US military is denying it even happened, so in this case it's hard for anyone to judge I agree. In other cases (such as the Apache "collateral murder" video), the information available to the individual, and their entire sequence of actions was discernible to the public through the release of the gun camera footage. It certainly puts people (who may not necessarily be soldiers or helicopter pilots) in a much better position to judge the actions of those involved when information like that is released. For the record, if anyone has seen that footage I felt the firing on the white van (which later turned out to be an emergency vehicle) to be entirely unnecessary, and that is something that I would consider "rash."

    I disagree with the belief that only soldiers can judge other soldiers. While I concede that there aren't many other experiences in the world that approximate the heat of battle, people in many other professions are required to make tough, life-and-death decisions every day in stressful environments. On this forum we certainly make a habit of criticizing and judging those individuals and their decisions, despite not being in their shoes and not being privy to the information (or lack thereof) that influenced their decision-making process.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 03-23-11 at 09:40 PM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    While I concede that there aren't many other experiences in the world that approximate the heat of battle, people in many other professions are required to make tough, life-and-death decisions every day in stressful environments. On this forum we certainly make a habit of criticizing and judging those individuals and their decisions, despite not being in their shoes and not being privy to the information (or lack thereof) that influenced their decision-making process.
    I want links to ANYBODY criticizing ANY decision made in ANY environment even halfway as stressful as a soldier in war on this forum.

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by dontworrybehappy View Post
    I want links to ANYBODY criticizing ANY decision made in ANY environment even halfway as stressful as a soldier in war on this forum.
    And just how stressful is such an environment? Different soldiers and troops face different situations. How would you even measure "halfway?" Is a trooper pinned down by suppressive fire from the enemy in the same "stressful environment" as an Apache pilot who can rain fire down onto the ground with impunity? People make tough life-and-death decisions every day. Troops certainly get it a lot worse than most but they are hardly the only ones.

    I disagree with the notion that the decisions and actions of troops are somehow untouchable because they operate in a stressful environment. Yes soldiers have it tough. Yes soldiers make mistakes. Yes, they're human. No, they shouldn't be immune from criticism.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 03-24-11 at 12:11 AM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    Maybe we should only use our soldiers when we declare war then? While a soldier volenteers their life, a civilian from a country we have our militairy in might not.
    Sure, but that's a whole other issue. Candy and nuts and all that ****. Whether or not we should only use soldiers when we declare war is irrelevant to the fact that our soldiers are there, were in this position, and had to act.

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Isn't it a cardinal sin to not have identified your target before you shoot...should at least figure out if your target is armed/hostile before one pulls the trigger?
    Yeah, I guess that chooper crew could have waited to see if those civilians started killing the downed air crew, before they hosed them down.

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    And just how stressful is such an environment? Different soldiers and troops face different situations. How would you even measure "halfway?" Is a trooper pinned down by suppressive fire from the enemy in the same "stressful environment" as an Apache pilot who can rain fire down onto the ground with impunity? People make tough life-and-death decisions every day. Troops certainly get it a lot worse than most but they are hardly the only ones.

    I disagree with the notion that the decisions and actions of troops are somehow untouchable because they operate in a stressful environment. Yes soldiers have it tough. Yes soldiers make mistakes. Yes, they're human. No, they shouldn't be immune from criticism.
    In a word, yes. IMO, on today's battlefield, it more stressful killing the enemy than it is to worry about being killed by the enemy.

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Yeah, I guess that chooper crew could have waited to see if those civilians started killing the downed air crew, before they hosed them down.
    Or, hypothetically, instead of waiting they could have fired warning shots, or bracket them, to hold them off until they got close enough to tell who they were shooting at.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    In a word, yes. IMO, on today's battlefield, it more stressful killing the enemy than it is to worry about being killed by the enemy.
    You're entitled to your own opinion. I disagree.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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