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Thread: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed Air

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post

    As for accidents... If you kill someone that doesnt pose a threat you do not belong on todays modern battlefield.
    ever been on a battlefield? it's not like playstation or x-box. telling who does or does not pose a threat is not always easy AND...the guy that wasn't posing a threat 2 minutes ago could be posing a major threat 2 seconds from now.

    unless you have been there and done that, you have no right to judge those who have.
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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    ever been on a battlefield? it's not like playstation or x-box. telling who does or does not pose a threat is not always easy AND...the guy that wasn't posing a threat 2 minutes ago could be posing a major threat 2 seconds from now.

    unless you have been there and done that, you have no right to judge those who have.
    No but some crazy **** shot at me and my fellow boyscouts when I was a kid way down in Imperial Valley. Don't think that counts enough though.

    Volenteering to join a force to defend your country has its costs and burdens. That does not mean one should have an OK pass for for accidentally taking someones life.

    I guess you can just blame my hippe views on boyscouts and keep dismissing me as insignificant.
    Last edited by dirtpoorchris; 03-23-11 at 06:18 PM.
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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    So if a California boy was found guilty of killing civs on purpose it wouldnt be terrorism in your eyes?
    Would depend entirely on his motivations and his potential connections.

    But if some brown guy that worships Allah killed civs on purpose it would ammount to terrorism or no?
    See above.

    What im saying is! If testimony from fellow soldiers and bulletproof evidence was ever shown in any situation and it was one of our guys doing the deed would you think hes a terrorist or does it only apply to other countries?
    Evidence of what? Something I'd consider a terrorist act? Sure. I'd call him a terrorist. This situation isn't anywhere near that.

    Us being there and civilians dying by US hands DOES affect political outcome and scare people.
    This is the most ignorant, simplistic, twisted attempt of spinning what terrorism is that I've seen in a long time.

    If this situation turned out to be real and they guy was somehow found guilty of causing choas on purpose its not okay to call it out?
    No one in this thread have said this guy should have nothing done to him if he did it knowingly that these people were civilians or even attempting to sort it out.

    People had issues with you stating that even if he took every precaution possible to find out the purpose of these individuals before opening fire due to a belief that there was a possability that the others soldiers life was at risk that you thought he should still be essentially dishonorably discharged for having "bad judgement".

    As for accidents... If you kill someone that doesnt pose a threat you do not belong on todays modern battlefield.
    Which is retarted you're stating that in reference to this. A group of people in a hostile location with no discernable way to know if they're friendly or not approaching a downed soldier IS a potential threat. Whether or not they are DEFINITELY a threat is what had to be determined, and on "todays modern battlefield" that is not always a binary 0 and 1 type of situation.

    With the gaint weapons of destruction we have how can you feel okay about not removing soldiers that have accidents?
    Because I don't live in a fantasy land of video games and anime with a warped sense of what war and split second life or death decisions actually entail.

    We are talking about human life. Guess what, the soldier on the ground is human as well.

    You still haven't answered any of my questions...no surprise.

    What would your stance have been if he hadn't shot because he wasn't positive of their intent...and they killed the guy on the ground. Should the pilot have been discharged then as well?

    Why do you feel its better to gamble on the life of the american rather than the life of the libyans? Because either way this pilot acted, if he wasn't 100% sure, he was taking a gamble on one side or the other's health.

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    War is messy even if it is a non-war or whatever the current administration is calling it.

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    We are talking about human life. Guess what, the soldier on the ground is human as well.

    You still haven't answered any of my questions...no surprise.

    What would your stance have been if he hadn't shot because he wasn't positive of their intent...and they killed the guy on the ground. Should the pilot have been discharged then as well?

    Why do you feel its better to gamble on the life of the american rather than the life of the libyans? Because either way this pilot acted, if he wasn't 100% sure, he was taking a gamble on one side or the other's health.
    Maybe we should only use our soldiers when we declare war then? While a soldier volenteers their life, a civilian from a country we have our militairy in might not.

    I was thinking that maybe we should have a new "Didn't Make it to the End of the Road" badge. (please think of a better single word for me in the extreeme far shot that you would somehow actually agree. Maybe just call it "Discharged"?) I would not want a soldier to face dishonor for an accident. But I dont want him holding a gun either. (but this would lead to bad apples fragging a single civ just go get sent home and that could be very bad)

    Maybe if we where in an actual war with people landing on our shores accidents are a little more permissable. But we have a President using militairy force and it appears to be not challangable by the poeple at all. SCARY. What if some hostile country decides to land any amount of mercs on our land at commit an act of terrorism? Is our current establishment going to lead a coalition of willing without congress?
    Last edited by dirtpoorchris; 03-23-11 at 06:39 PM.
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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    So if a California boy was found guilty of killing civs on purpose it wouldnt be terrorism in your eyes?
    But if some brown guy that worships Allah killed civs on purpose it would ammount to terrorism or no?
    When you add the words "on purpose," you redeem yourself.

    As for accidents... If you kill someone that doesnt pose a threat you do not belong on todays modern battlefield. With the gaint weapons of destruction we have how can you feel okay about not removing soldiers that have accidents? We arent takling about video games here. You guys are absolutely right. We are talking about real human life. **** that cant come back once taken.
    If you kill a civilian on purpose, you're wrong and should be prosecuted by a military tribunal. If you kill a civilian by accident, although you will live with that for the rest of your life, your countrymen shouldn't judge you. Soldiers are not perfect. Accidents happen. Please don't try to turn our battlefields into, "I've got to call my lawyer first."
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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    true, but if people are going to insist that we do act as world police, they need to STFU and let us do it. funny how if we do go in to some other country to try to help, all the pacifists cry about it and if we don't go in and try to help, the same damn people piss themselves crying that we should have done something.

    The US is in a no win situation with crap like this. damned if we do, damned if we don't.
    I'm fine with not going in and helping. Our military is damned good at what it's trained to do. They are not trained to be police officers, they're trained to be soldiers. There's a big difference. When you start demanding police action out of the military, you expose the military to additional dangers, regulations, and rules which normally wouldn't apply. We are not good with the whole imperial thing. And I for one say good. I want a strong, unstoppable, defensive military. If the men and women of the military are resolved to put it all on the line for my rights and sovereignty; then that's all I want them fighting for. It's a huge commitment to say that you'll run into these areas and fight, possibly die, in order to protect. We have a duty to honor that resolve and to ask our military only to act on that integrity when our own freedom and sovereignty are at stake.

    Other countries have to fend for themselves, I'm not going to pay in terms of American blood and American money for other people's governments. They can do that themselves.
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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    American lives, IMO, are well more valuable. Which is why I don't think we should be over there in the first place. Let them sort out their own troubles, we've got our own.
    That's the position I would take if I were in power. That's not the course of action we're following. It's better to be 110% wrong than to be 90% right.

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    So if a California boy was found guilty of killing civs on purpose it wouldnt be terrorism in your eyes?

    But if some brown guy that worships Allah killed civs on purpose it would ammount to terrorism or no?
    We destroy terrorists because they hurt us. There's nothing to be gained by destroying our own people for hurting others. Especially under conditions where they are expected to.

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    As for accidents... If you kill someone that doesnt pose a threat you do not belong on todays modern battlefield. With the gaint weapons of destruction we have how can you feel okay about not removing soldiers that have accidents? We arent takling about video games here. You guys are absolutely right. We are talking about real human life. **** that cant come back once taken.
    If you're on today's modern battlefield, most of the time you don't know who poses a threat so you're forced to assume everyone does. You have to make your best judgment based on the information you have. It's absolutely asinine to think we should destroy good soldiers because they were forced to guess and guessed wrong.

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post


    We destroy terrorists because they hurt us. There's nothing to be gained by destroying our own people for hurting others. Especially under conditions where they are expected to.
    So then are you saying we are attacking Kaddafi but hes not a terrorist or that if an American is a terrorist he shouldnt be stopped?
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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    Maybe we should only use our soldiers when we declare war then? While a soldier volenteers their life, a civilian from a country we have our militairy in might not.

    I was thinking that maybe we should have a new "Didn't Make it to the End of the Road" badge. (please think of a better single word for me in the extreeme far shot that you would somehow actually agree. Maybe just call it "Discharged"?) I would not want a soldier to face dishonor for an accident. But I dont want him holding a gun either. (but this would lead to bad apples fragging a single civ just go get sent home and that could be very bad)

    Maybe if we where in an actual war with people landing on our shores accidents are a little more permissable. But we have a President using militairy force and it appears to be not challangable by the poeple at all. SCARY. What if some hostile country decides to land any amount of mercs on our land at commit an act of terrorism? Is our current establishment going to lead a coalition of willing without congress?
    Malpractice suits for the military?

    Look, no one can blame villagers for being ignorant of a soldiers paranoia but you can't blame a soldier for their paranoia in a foreign land where they're engaging an enemy who is likely to use asymetrical tactics. It'd be nuts to be rid of any soldier capable of making an error - you'd have no one left.

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