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Thread: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed Air

  1. #21
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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Sad fact in War that likely gets lost in the giltz and glamor of hollywood, the PC world we live in, and us arm chair quarterback civilians is that moral equivilancy goes out the window. You see one of your men down there and your primary focus is keeping him safe. Now does that mean you open fire on a bunch of citizens coming towards him? Of course not. You go to all lengths you possibly can to discern a threat. However, if you're unable to be certain one way or another and you get to a point where you have to either act or gamble with his life...I can't blame a soldier for acting.

    For all of us civilians who want to boo hoo it and cry foul and say how horrible of a monster he is an the american soldiers life wasn't any more important than the villagers....you tell me that if given a situation where you think there's a 50/50 shot that a loved one is about to be killed if you don't shoot the people coming towards them and you reach that point of no return that you'd honestly gamble on your loved ones life rather than taking the shot?

    As much as we all like to put ourselves on these huge moral pedestals and act like everythings equal, we do so hypocritical blind of reality even within our own lives let alone what the realities of War are. Its stuff like this that ultimately I think all the coverage we have these days is a bad thing because I gurantee that stuff like this wasn't any less common, if not more common, in the wars of old.

    Would I like these situations to not occur? Of course. And do I hope that the military does an internal investigation to be sure the guy did attempt to discern intent and get a clear understanding of the target first up until a point requiring action? Absolutely. But if its determined this did happen and the pilot tried his best to get a clear understanding of the target and was finally put into a situation where his best judgement was that there was still a strong possability that the soldiers life was at risk, then I do not blame him for that action.
    I'm the last person that needs to be told that war is hell and that **** happens, but the rules of engagement are pretty clear on the need to identify your target first. If this actually happened (which the military is denying right now) I agree that an investigation is needed. Just because we recognize that **** happens in war doesn't give anyone the excuse to not exercise extreme prejudice when pulling the trigger.
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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I'm the last person that needs to be told that war is hell and that **** happens, but the rules of engagement are pretty clear on the need to identify your target first. If this actually happened (which the military is denying right now) I agree that an investigation is needed. Just because we recognize that **** happens in war doesn't give anyone the excuse to not exercise extreme prejudice when pulling the trigger.
    Like I said, I don't disagree with the idea that you need to identify your target. However, things don't always work like in a simulation. If he saw them, took a second to try and figure it out, and then just started shooting...absolutely I agree with you. However, if he tried to identify the targets to the best of his ability and was not able to by the time the situation required that he either act or gamble on the life of hte soldier, then that is where we seem to part ways.

    Your seem to fall on the side that if you can't identify them by that point you gamble with the soldiers life and hope that they're friendly. I fall on teh side that if you can't identify them by that point you gamble on their lives and hope that they're not friendly. In both cases I think we agree that first and foremost attempts should be made to identify the target and their intent.

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Like I said, I don't disagree with the idea that you need to identify your target. However, things don't always work like in a simulation. If he saw them, took a second to try and figure it out, and then just started shooting...absolutely I agree with you. However, if he tried to identify the targets to the best of his ability and was not able to by the time the situation required that he either act or gamble on the life of hte soldier, then that is where we seem to part ways.

    Your seem to fall on the side that if you can't identify them by that point you gamble with the soldiers life and hope that they're friendly. I fall on teh side that if you can't identify them by that point you gamble on their lives and hope that they're not friendly. In both cases I think we agree that first and foremost attempts should be made to identify the target and their intent.
    You can't read minds. How many soldiers have been blown up in Iraq by innocent looking people with bombs on their belts? Approaching unknowns are hostiles in a combat zone. A pilot that has gone down in hostile territory should not be approached at all. Unless they can be absolutely proven to be harmless, which would only be something accomplished after interrogating them, I feel that the soldier did the right thing. Hindsight is always 20-20.
    Last edited by dontworrybehappy; 03-23-11 at 01:41 PM.

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by dontworrybehappy View Post
    Libya war: US chopper shoots 6 villagers who welcomed Air Force F-15 crash pilots | Mail Online

    Very unfortunate, but you don't approach a downed US pilot during a military operation. Even with good intentions.
    They couldn't know that. It's neither the fault of them nor the fault of the soldiers, it's a tragic mistake.
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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    They couldn't know that. It's neither the fault of them nor the fault of the soldiers, it's a tragic mistake.

    I think we can all remember, and I'm sure the military does, what happened to two American servicemen who were captured by 'civilians' in Iraq. They were dragged through the streets and their bodies hung from bridges, while the locals laughed and jeered.

    The problem in much of the Muslim world as that nobody really knows who is a 'civilian' and who is not. Witness the most recent bombing of innocents bombed in Jerusalem. I doubt that perpetrator wore any identifying markings.

    As well, innocent civilians have been decapitated by terrorists and have later shown the act on video, and none of these despicable wore anything which identified them for who they were. Shoot first, and when word gets around people will learn that it is best to stay clear.
    Last edited by Grant; 03-23-11 at 02:18 PM.

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    This is maybe good reason why we shouldn't get involved in **** that ain't our business.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    For all of us civilians who want to boo hoo it and cry foul and say how horrible of a monster he is an the american soldiers life wasn't any more important than the villagers...
    I'll say it if nobody else will. The life of one American soldier is worth the lives of any number of Libyans. Any man believes otherwise can't be trusted with the lives of American soldiers.

    We're willing to bleed for the cause of peace and order in Libya. I disagree with it, but that's what we've decided and I support it. But when it comes time to choose between American lives and Libyan lives, I will choose American lives every time. The only consideration that is worth more than the lives of American soldiers is the success of their mission.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    The problem in much of the Muslim world as that nobody really knows who is a 'civilian' and who is not. Witness the most recent bombing of innocents bombed in Jerusalem. I doubt that perpetrator wore any identifying markings.
    There's no such thing as civilians. We taught the world that in the war that gave birth to us. It is shameful that we have forgotten it ourselves.

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post
    I'll say it if nobody else will. The life of one American soldier is worth the lives of any number of Libyans. Any man believes otherwise can't be trusted with the lives of American soldiers.
    American lives, IMO, are well more valuable. Which is why I don't think we should be over there in the first place. Let them sort out their own troubles, we've got our own.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Didn't anybody learn anything by watching the video of the Apache helo (mistakenly) taking out those reporters and then the people who tried to help them?

    Don't go into a battle zone unless you are willing to get your ass lit up. Even to help the wounded or dying.
    Last edited by scourge99; 03-23-11 at 04:08 PM.
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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by dontworrybehappy View Post
    You can't read minds. How many soldiers have been blown up in Iraq by innocent looking people with bombs on their belts? Approaching unknowns are hostiles in a combat zone. A pilot that has gone down in hostile territory should not be approached at all. Unless they can be absolutely proven to be harmless, which would only be something accomplished after interrogating them, I feel that the soldier did the right thing. Hindsight is always 20-20.
    I saw a soldier get stabbed in the neck by a "friendly" 12 year old iraqi boy who had a knife hidden under his coat.
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