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Thread: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed Air

  1. #141
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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    In a wall somewhere maybe.
    Or, through a wall, into someone's living room, or into the dining room, while a family of five is sitting down for supper and they're all splattered against the opposite wall.

    Bullet's stop for two reasons: they run out of energy, or they hit something to dense to penetrate. 30mm chain-gun rounds have a ****load of energy and aren't going to be stopped by a simple masonry wall.

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Or, through a wall, into someone's living room, or into the dining room, while a family of five is sitting down for supper and they're all splattered against the opposite wall.

    Bullet's stop for two reasons: they run out of energy, or they hit something to dense to penetrate. 30mm chain-gun rounds have a ****load of energy and aren't going to be stopped by a simple masonry wall.
    Hey, same happens in combat when soldiers shoot to kill but miss, or are using suppressive fire. In fact that vast majority of bullets miss their targets.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Hey, same happens in combat when soldiers shoot to kill but miss, or are using suppressive fire. In fact that vast majority of bullets miss their targets.


    This is not true, I suggest a book called "On Killing" by LTC David Grossman...
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    This is not true, I suggest a book called "On Killing" by LTC David Grossman...
    What's his thesis?
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    What's his thesis?


    Particular to your post, he talks about conditioning that increased our hit rates to 90% or so in vietnam.,...



    Editorial Reviews
    From Publishers Weekly
    Drawing on interviews, published personal accounts and academic studies, Grossman investigates the psychology of killing in combat. Stressing that human beings have a powerful, innate resistance to the taking of life, he examines the techniques developed by the military to overcome that aversion. His provocative study focuses in particular on the Vietnam war, revealing how the American soldier was "enabled to kill to a far greater degree than any other soldier in history." Grossman argues that the breakdown of American society, combined with the pervasive violence in the media and interactive video games, is conditioning our children to kill in a manner siimilar to the army's conditioning of soldiers: "We are reaching that stage of desensitization at which the infliction of pain and suffering has become a source of entertainment: vicarious pleasure rather than revulsion. We are learning to kill, and we are learning to like it." Grossman, a professor of military science at Arkansas State University, has written a study of relevance to a society of escalating violence.
    Copyright 1995 Reed Business Information, Inc. --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.
    From Library Journal
    Grossman (psychology, West Point) presents three important hypotheses: 1) That humans possess the reluctance to kill their own kind; 2) that this reluctance can be systematically broken down by use of standard conditioning techniques; and 3) that the reaction of "normal" (e.g., non-psychopathic) soliders to having killed in close combat can be best understood as a series of "stages" similar to the ubiquitous Kubler-Ross stages of reaction to life-threatening disease. While some of the evidence to support his theories have been previously presented by military historians (most notably, John Keegan), this systematic examination of the individual soldier's behavior, like all good scientific theory making, leads to a series of useful explanations for a variety of phenomena, such as the high rate of post traumatic stress disorders among Vietnam veterans, why the rate of aggravated assault continues to climb, and why civilian populations that have endured heavy bombing in warfare do not have high incidents of mental illness. This important book deserves a wide readership. Essential for all libraries serving military personnel or veterans, including most public libraries.
    Mary Ann Hughes, Neill P.L., Pullman, Wash.
    Copyright 1995 Reed Business Information, Inc. --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.
    From Booklist
    What makes soldiers kill--or not--animates this intriguing survey by a psychologist and former U.S. Army officer. Grossman reveals that only a fraction of soldiers kill during warfare (and feel revulsion when they do); the rest (about 85 percent in World War II) resist by missing the target or refusing to fire. With an eye to the military command's imperative of overcoming that innate resistance, Grossman quotes numerous anecdotes that exemplify the phenomenon and studies that examine it. With such knowledge, the military has implemented training that gets firing rates up to 90 percent of soldiers, but the psychic cost of blazing away for real is heavy. Individually, a killer goes through thrill-remorse-rationalization stages; socially, the killer needs reassurance and if it is not received, will suffer post-traumatic stress syndrome, characteristic of Vietnam veterans. Grossman concludes his findings of "enabling factors" in killing by identifying them at work in the rampant violence afflicting American society. A book that requires some steely fortitude to finish, but once done, On Killing delivers insights on human nature that are both gratifying and repelling. Gilbert Taylor --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.
    Product Description
    The good news is that most soldiers are loath to kill. But armies have developed sophisticated ways of overcoming this instinctive aversion. And contemporary civilian society, particularly the media, replicates the army's conditioning techniques, and, according to Lt. Col. Dave Grossman's thesis, is responsible for our rising rate of murder among the young.

    Upon its initial publication, ON KILLING was hailed as a landmark study of the techniques the military uses to overcome the powerful reluctance to kill, of how killing affects soldiers, and of the societal implications of escalating violence. Now, Grossman has updated this classic work to include information on 21st-century military conflicts, recent trends in crime, suicide bombings, school shootings, and more. The result is a work certain to be relevant and important for decades to come.
    About the Author
    A former army Ranger and paratrooper, Lt. Col. Dave Grossman taught psychology at West Point and was the professor of Military Science at Arkansas State University.
    In Genereal.

    Amazon.com: On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society (9780316040938): Dave Grossman: Books
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  6. #146
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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    Particular to your post, he talks about conditioning that increased our hit rates to 90% or so in vietnam.,...





    In Genereal.

    Amazon.com: On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society (9780316040938): Dave Grossman: Books
    Well I wasn't talking about psychological conditioning, I was talking more about the nature of urban combat. And from the summary, it appears he is not talking about hit rates (unless it's mentioned elsewhere in the book that's not in the summary), he is talking about getting 90% of troops to fire at their intended target (as opposed to missing on purpose or failing to fire at all).

    Since you have personal experience, do you really believe that 90% of your outgoing rounds hit your intended target? Is it even possible to know?
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  7. #147
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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Well I wasn't talking about psychological conditioning, I was talking more about the nature of urban combat. And from the summary, it appears he is not talking about hit rates (unless it's mentioned elsewhere in the book that's not in the summary), he is talking about getting 90% of troops to fire at their intended target (as opposed to missing on purpose or failing to fire at all).

    yes, you are right, I misspoke, (2nd round of the flu 1st regular, now stomache)


    Since you have personal experience, do you really believe that 90% of your outgoing rounds hit your intended target? Is it even possible to know?

    All of the Good Reverends rounds hit thier targets, in both love and war....
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  8. #148
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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    yes, you are right, I misspoke, (2nd round of the flu 1st regular, now stomache)





    All of the Good Reverends rounds hit thier targets, in both love and war....
    Take care brother, hope you feel better
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  9. #149
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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    I have a 210% percent hit rate. =)

  10. #150
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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by cpgrad08 View Post
    I have a 210% percent hit rate. =)
    your bullets must be boomerang-shaped.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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