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Thread: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed Air

  1. #101
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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by cpgrad08 View Post
    Urban enviroment were the Enemy hides among civillians populations, and were no uniform. Warning shots don't stop this fanitical enemy. Ballin I like you but until you get over here you don't really understand.
    Seems to me it would be more dangerous to fire warning shots in an urban settings than an open field, comparatively speaking. In the urban setting you're closer in and have less time and cover to take those kinds of chances.
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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Seems to me it would be more dangerous to fire warning shots in an urban settings than an open field, comparatively speaking. In the urban setting you're closer in and have less time and cover to take those kinds of chances.
    Warning are dangerous always. They can give your position away, give the the enemy the chance to take cover. Shoot to kill is the best policy at least form a Marine perspective. This applied to in the field. Check Points and such have different ROE. but they all involve if you have to shoot you shoot to kill.

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I'm fine with not going in and helping. Our military is damned good at what it's trained to do. They are not trained to be police officers, they're trained to be soldiers. There's a big difference. When you start demanding police action out of the military, you expose the military to additional dangers, regulations, and rules which normally wouldn't apply. We are not good with the whole imperial thing. And I for one say good. I want a strong, unstoppable, defensive military. If the men and women of the military are resolved to put it all on the line for my rights and sovereignty; then that's all I want them fighting for. It's a huge commitment to say that you'll run into these areas and fight, possibly die, in order to protect. We have a duty to honor that resolve and to ask our military only to act on that integrity when our own freedom and sovereignty are at stake.

    Other countries have to fend for themselves, I'm not going to pay in terms of American blood and American money for other people's governments. They can do that themselves.
    MP's are trained to be both soldiers and police officers... otherwise good point
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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    MP's are trained to be both soldiers and police officers... otherwise good point
    Oscar you can't aspect the rest of the Military to be as kick *** as us MPs. =)

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by cpgrad08 View Post
    Oscar you can't aspect the rest of the Military to be as kick *** as us MPs. =)
    Except when it comes to proper word usage :P

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by cpgrad08 View Post
    Not everyone is trained to fire warning shoots. In the Marine Corps if you open fire you shoot to kill. No warning shoots no wounding shoots. Not sure what the other branches policies are.
    during my last deployment, the ROE specifically forbade firing warning shots. If you had to shoot, you shot to kill. that goes back to "if you haven't been there, you really don't know what the rules and conditions are, so you are best off keeping your uninformed opinion to yourself"
    Last edited by OscarB63; 03-24-11 at 10:08 AM.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    If you had been paying attention you would have realized that that was a sarcastic statement. Now since it's apparent that you weren't a chopper pilot, where in your personal experience does it say being able to kill with impunity from the air is more stressful than getting pinned down and potentially getting killed?
    Strawman...

    The stress on the pilot is not generated due to the danger to himself. The stress on the pilot is generated due to the danger to his fellow soldier whose life in part rested on his decision.

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Strawman...

    The stress on the pilot is not generated due to the danger to himself. The stress on the pilot is generated due to the danger to his fellow soldier whose life in part rested on his decision.
    Point conceded. With respect to dontworrybehappy's original point however, it's still true that different soldiers face different situations and different levels of stress, which was what I was trying to get at. It's hard to measure just how much is "halfway as stressful." Certainly a President debating whether or not to go to war places a great burden on him, not because he himself is in danger, but because his decisions affect the lives of people on a grand scale.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 03-24-11 at 12:56 PM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Isn't it a cardinal sin to not have identified your target before you shoot...should at least figure out if your target is armed/hostile before one pulls the trigger?


    In war, you hesitate, you die.


    They could have been coming to rescue, kidnapp or kill., Would you choose to leave that to the unkown people?
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    In war, you hesitate, you die.


    They could have been coming to rescue, kidnapp or kill., Would you choose to leave that to the unkown people?
    Well in truthfulness we don't know the exact situation or thought process that the pilot/gunner was going through when he was approaching the downed air crew so it's hard to say what actually happened. Given the few facts we do know, personally (I know a lot of people don't agree with me on this), I would hold off on pulling the trigger until I was close enough to assess the situation. The idea of firing into a crowd as soon as you're in visual range, but not close enough to identify the target, is a bit alien to me.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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