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Thread: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed Air

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Then, the court martial factors in the fact that the decision had to be made in less than 3 seconds and now we have a different ball game.

    In combat, you react, you don't think, there's no time to think.
    That is not true, there may be times were all you can do is react but there are plently of times where you have a chance to think.

    And you dont know if the pilot had only 3 seconds, in fact I know for a fact he must have had more time because he called in air support which takes more than 3 seconds to arrive.

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Isn't it a cardinal sin to not have identified your target before you shoot...should at least figure out if your target is armed/hostile before one pulls the trigger?
    It's not always possible to tell if a crowd is hostile or friendly. They were in a strange environement with one of their man stranded, if I was in that helicopter I would shoot too. The other pilot got saved by the villagers and handed over to Western forces though.
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    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    That is not true, there may be times were all you can do is react but there are plently of times where you have a chance to think.

    And you dont know if the pilot had only 3 seconds, in fact I know for a fact he must have had more time because he called in air support which takes more than 3 seconds to arrive.
    No one- absolutely no one, has a lock on this.
    We all see things from our particular frame of reference, and that bias colors everything that we do. Sometimes we get so focused on what we know/ believe is correct that we can't see the proverbial forest for the trees.

    There are a great number of reasons as to why/ how people react a certain way, all of which are irrelevant if you are the guy pressing on them.

    There are some things that are constants, and some that are out there in the ether.
    The ability to think on your feet and engage properly may be the difference between a great war story and having a Soft Ball Field named after you.

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Or, hypothetically, instead of waiting they could have fired warning shots, or bracket them, to hold them off until they got close enough to tell who they were shooting at.
    Not everyone is trained to fire warning shoots. In the Marine Corps if you open fire you shoot to kill. No warning shoots no wounding shoots. Not sure what the other branches policies are.

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by cpgrad08 View Post
    Not everyone is trained to fire warning shoots. In the Marine Corps if you open fire you shoot to kill. No warning shoots no wounding shoots. Not sure what the other branches policies are.
    Seems like it would be a good idea given that we're fighting in built-up urban areas these days with civilian populations (and hostiles who hide amongst them).
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Seems like it would be a good idea given that we're fighting in built-up urban areas these days with civilian populations (and hostiles who hide amongst them).
    Urban enviroment were the Enemy hides among civillians populations, and were no uniform. Warning shots don't stop this fanitical enemy. Ballin I like you but until you get over here you don't really understand.

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by cpgrad08 View Post
    Urban enviroment were the Enemy hides among civillians populations, and were no uniform. Warning shots don't stop this fanitical enemy. Ballin I like you but until you get over here you don't really understand.
    I'm not talking about a fanatical enemy. I'm talking about civilians who don't know that sometimes it's not safe to be where they are, as it apparently was in this case. Seems warning shots would be useful in warning them off while not causing unnecessary collateral damage.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I'm not talking about a fanatical enemy. I'm talking about civilians who don't know that sometimes it's not safe to be where they are, as it apparently was in this case. Seems warning shots would be useful in warning them off while not causing unnecessary collateral damage.
    Typically there are other methods available.

    I recall a story one of my buddies told me after he got back from Iraq a few years back. Apparently he had been working at a check point outside of a major city during the invasion. I recall him mentioning that they had several escalating methods of scaring off civilians who would drive toward the checkpoint (although now I can't think of them off the top of my head). Most of them hadn't seen much action yet and were more on edge than anything else.

    One incident in particular he mentioned really hit home in regards to this story. A 4-door sedan was headed straight for the checkpoint. They did everything they could to scare the car away, even going so far as shooting into the air (an act which is NOT okay) but nothing stopped the car. Finally they had no choice but to open fire on the car. It turned out that the car was carrying a family of four, a father, a mother and two children. Some of the others there actually suggested trying to plant AKs in the car, but their NCO shut them up real quick.

    This is coming from a guy that could probably break me in half, someone who I always viewed as untouchable. He couldn't finish the story because he broke down in tears.

    I don't blame the servicemen and women who make these sorts of calls. I blame the ****ed up people who have created such a situation to begin with. Those who disguise themselves as civilians just so that they can effectively car bomb a soft target. Most of those who make mistakes like these suffer enough by their own hand without our help.
    “The more you know, the harder it is to take decisive action. Once you become informed, you start seeing complexities and shades of gray. You realize that nothing is as clear and simple as it first appears. Ultimately, knowledge is paralyzing.” - Bill Watterson
    Who Is Chicago Ted?

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBook View Post
    Typically there are other methods available.

    I recall a story one of my buddies told me after he got back from Iraq a few years back. Apparently he had been working at a check point outside of a major city during the invasion. I recall him mentioning that they had several escalating methods of scaring off civilians who would drive toward the checkpoint (although now I can't think of them off the top of my head). Most of them hadn't seen much action yet and were more on edge than anything else.

    One incident in particular he mentioned really hit home in regards to this story. A 4-door sedan was headed straight for the checkpoint. They did everything they could to scare the car away, even going so far as shooting into the air (an act which is NOT okay) but nothing stopped the car. Finally they had no choice but to open fire on the car. It turned out that the car was carrying a family of four, a father, a mother and two children. Some of the others there actually suggested trying to plant AKs in the car, but their NCO shut them up real quick.

    This is coming from a guy that could probably break me in half, someone who I always viewed as untouchable. He couldn't finish the story because he broke down in tears.

    I don't blame the servicemen and women who make these sorts of calls. I blame the ****ed up people who have created such a situation to begin with. Those who disguise themselves as civilians just so that they can effectively car bomb a soft target. Most of those who make mistakes like these suffer enough by their own hand without our help.
    There are plenty of these types of stories and I've heard numerous examples similar to the one you've provided, and I empathize with the troops involved. Iraqi drivers for whatever reason just act crazy sometimes, and it doesn't do anyone any favors. As for planting AKs in the car, I'm glad the NCO made the right call. The systematic use of "drop weapons" has been well-documented in certain cases. If it happened as your friend described it then it's just a tragedy and nobody can really be faulted, just be honest.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 03-24-11 at 03:56 AM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    There are plenty of these types of stories and I've heard numerous examples similar to the one you've provided, and I empathize with the troops involved. Iraqi drivers for whatever reason just act crazy sometimes, and it doesn't do anyone any favors. As for planting AKs in the car, I'm glad the NCO made the right call. The systematic use of "drop weapons" has been well-documented in certain cases. If it happened as your friend described it then it's just a tragedy and nobody can really be faulted, just be honest.
    Yeah. I've sadly heard plenty of stories about people in the service who have planted weapons and it is often times overlooked.

    There is a difference between being understanding and turning a blind eye, although it is a very fine line.
    “The more you know, the harder it is to take decisive action. Once you become informed, you start seeing complexities and shades of gray. You realize that nothing is as clear and simple as it first appears. Ultimately, knowledge is paralyzing.” - Bill Watterson
    Who Is Chicago Ted?

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