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Thread: White House denies regime change is part of Libya mission [edited]

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    Re: White House denies regime change is part of Libya mission [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    AQI (Iraqis) but not al Qeada. I'm trying to get you to see there is a difference between the two.

    In Afghanistan you're fighting someone different as well (Taliban). al Qaeda is in Pakistan. We're in Afghanistan because we're worried aboiut al Qaeda, who is in Pakistan, but we're not fighting al Qaeda directly there.
    AQI was started by OBL and Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. Neither of them are Iraqi's.

    al-Qaeda in Iraq has been destroyed.

    Try another smoke color. The yellow one isn't working.
    The national security of the United States can never be left in the hands of liberals.

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    Re: White House denies regime change is part of Libya mission [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I'm not sure I'd go that far, but we do have to abandon our imperialistic efforts, which aren't all that new (think Hawaii).
    Imperialism is the death of a Republic and birth of an Empire. There are serious concerns over how the government can use our military and the degree of freedom one man seems to have over control of our standing military without proper check. I think that there is serious ramifications to the Republic in terms of size and scope of government which we are not properly regulating. And as the government becomes bigger, more authoritative, more interventionist; the Republic will begin to die. A properly controlled government is essential to the longevity of the Republic.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: White House denies regime change is part of Libya mission [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Imperialism is the death of a Republic and birth of an Empire. There are serious concerns over how the government can use our military and the degree of freedom one man seems to have over control of our standing military without proper check. I think that there is serious ramifications to the Republic in terms of size and scope of government which we are not properly regulating. And as the government becomes bigger, more authoritative, more interventionist; the Republic will begin to die. A properly controlled government is essential to the longevity of the Republic.
    I certanly think there are concerns. I only wish these were new concerns. We seem to have all too often in our past behaved as if we were an Empire. And what is more disconcerting is the number of Americans who seem to want us to act like we rule the world.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: White House denies regime change is part of Libya mission [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I certanly think there are concerns. I only wish these were new concerns. We seem to have all too often in our past behaved as if we were an Empire. And what is more disconcerting is the number of Americans who seem to want us to act like we rule the world.
    I don't see us as having acted this aggressively towards imperialism in the past. I really do feel that we're moving towards a precipice and if we're not careful, we're gonna fall off the edge.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: White House denies regime change is part of Libya mission [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Mars View Post
    AQI was started by OBL and Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. Neither of them are Iraqi's.

    al-Qaeda in Iraq has been destroyed.

    Try another smoke color. The yellow one isn't working.
    Actually, not entirely true. AQI was started by Iraqis. They lobbied al Qaeda for help against what they saw as an invading army. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was not with al Qaeda in the begining. He joined after he was fighting us in Iraq.

    But the point is, destorying AQI is not equal to defeating al Qaeda. We beat Iraqis, or more accurately, Iraqis defeated them. It was the Sunni awakening that turned the tables, and this was largely an Iraqi movement. We wisely picked up on it and helped where we could, but that movement was more than significant.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: White House denies regime change is part of Libya mission [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I don't see us as having acted this aggressively towards imperialism in the past. I really do feel that we're moving towards a precipice and if we're not careful, we're gonna fall off the edge.
    The take over of Hawaii for example. VN would be another example. Even Cuba would fall under that classification I think.

    After a century of American rule, many native Hawaiians remain bitter about how the United States acquired the islands, located 2,500 miles from the West Coast.

    In 1893, a small group of sugar and pineapple-growing businessmen, aided by the American minister to Hawaii and backed by heavily armed U.S. soldiers and marines, deposed Hawaii's queen. Subsequently, they imprisoned the queen and seized 1.75 million acres of crown land and conspired to annex the islands to the United States.

    Digital History

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: White House denies regime change is part of Libya mission [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnWOlin View Post
    Any president that creates war, is a wartime president, etc historically will get voted for a second term. Obama already has Afghanistan, so I don't think he seriously wants us to go into Libya. The way things are going and thanks to the uprisings and the shifting going on in other middle eastern countries, I think if we just left these people alone, they will do what is right.
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnWOlin View Post
    Ok then how about we don't disturb the hornet nest and we don't worry about them at all and let them do whatever the hell they want in their own land.
    A 'not my problem' foreign policy is a poor foreign policy IMO. Hitler's militarizing the Rhineland? Not my problem. Japan's invading China? Not my problem. This is a global world and things have consequences. If you want to see a reformed Middle East, then we should look into how we can further mutual interests with the littlest bit of help. We don't have to send in a ground army, but we have sufficient air power that could wipe out Ghaddafi in an instant.

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    Re: White House denies regime change is part of Libya mission [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Opteron View Post
    A 'not my problem' foreign policy is a poor foreign policy IMO. Hitler's militarizing the Rhineland? Not my problem. Japan's invading China? Not my problem. This is a global world and things have consequences. If you want to see a reformed Middle East, then we should look into how we can further mutual interests with the littlest bit of help. We don't have to send in a ground army, but we have sufficient air power that could wipe out Ghaddafi in an instant.
    Expand a bit about 'not my problem' foreign policy. One point is other nations have the right to decide what form of government they want. The US is better served if we cease policing the world. It gets us very, very few friends and buttloads of enemies.

    And, the second point is to limit our activity in the ME. We should not create democracies or even tear down dictatorships unless they become a threat to American interests

    Thats the bottom line

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    Re: White House denies regime change is part of Libya mission [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Opteron View Post
    Hitler's militarizing the Rhineland?
    Is Libya doing something comparable in preparation to invade another country?
    Quote Originally Posted by Opteron View Post
    Japan's invading China?
    Has Libya invaded another country like Japan invading China?
    Quote Originally Posted by Opteron View Post
    This is a global world and things have consequences.
    This is true. Our action have global consequences too.
    But the interconnectedness of global players in and of itself doesn't inform us of what the best course of action is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Opteron View Post
    If you want to see a reformed Middle East, then we should look into how we can further mutual interests with the littlest bit of help.
    Agreed. But the case for war has to be absolutely compelling because it means that we become responsible for the deaths of innocents, it means we start a number of actions whose consequences we can't fully foresee. It's probably one of the most serious issues a nation can possibly face. The case for has to be very compelling.
    Quote Originally Posted by Opteron View Post
    We don't have to send in a ground army, but we have sufficient air power that could wipe out Ghaddafi in an instant.
    Sure. We could. But thinking it would be "easy" and hoping we share sympathies with people fighting a rotten regime is not enough.

    I'll listen. I am willing to be convinced. But I am not yet.
    Last edited by Simon W. Moon; 04-23-11 at 12:23 AM.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: White House denies regime change is part of Libya mission [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Expand a bit about 'not my problem' foreign policy. One point is other nations have the right to decide what form of government they want. The US is better served if we cease policing the world. It gets us very, very few friends and buttloads of enemies.

    And, the second point is to limit our activity in the ME. We should not create democracies or even tear down dictatorships unless they become a threat to American interests

    Thats the bottom line
    I understand your point about not intervening anywhere and not creating enemies. I believe either we should intervene all the time or none of the time, not intervene occasionally because that would not be helpful.

    I advocate only for intervening when the people request it and when we have support of the people, such as to overthrow a dictator. You're right, people should have the right to choose their own government and form of government too, through a popular vote, or a popular opinion where each person has equal say as anyone else. I don't believe dictatorships that maintain power through intimidation are legitimate.

    The 'not my problem' policy, is just that things that do not directly affect the US, but are not good for the world, will probably end up even worse for the world and will later affect the US in a negative way. Better to nip something in the bud first, then have it explode later.

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