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Thread: White House denies regime change is part of Libya mission [edited]

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    Re: White House denies regime change is part of Libya mission [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    It's also related tom something called Just War Theory. It's been kind of famous for centuries.
    What it's "related to" is not really relevant. And it's not a good analogy anyway.
    So, you concede that Iraq was "drawing a line short of" attacking the US and that Iraq was not likely to initiate an attack on the US directly or via proxy?
    That had nothing to do with the Iraq War. Nada.

    In your view of things, which of the following was/were superfluous?
    • Formulation of the Bush Doctrine
    • Congressional approval to use force
    • Seeking a UN resolution authorizing the use force

    None of them were "superfluous".

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    Re: White House denies regime change is part of Libya mission [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Just war theory is a good bench mark for considering warfare, however today, the game is being changed by those looking to destroy an entire civilization, that changes the game.
    No one ever set about to destroy a whole people or civilization and that's why things are different today?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    What it's "related to" is not really relevant. And it's not a good analogy anyway.
    There is no analogy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    That had nothing to do with the Iraq War. Nada.
    The threat to the US from Iraq had "nothing to do with the Iraq war?"
    Do you concede it as fact that Iraq was unlikely to initiate an attack on the US directly or via proxy for the purposes of this debate, or no?
    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    None of them were "superfluous".
    Then they were all necessary to the Iraq war?
    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Non Sequitur, the US had, and has enormous interests in the region. The Saudis were putting heavy pressure to take out Saddam.
    The threat to the US from Iraq was unrelated to the Iraq war?
    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    False premise...
    It's a question seeking clarification from Grant, not a premise.
    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    ... however I'd say the third one. The US is a sovereign nation, and has the ability to act unilaterally in protecting its interests.
    And our interests were not about protecting ourselves from the threat from Iraq, but were rather about how "[t]he Saudis were putting heavy pressure" on us?
    Last edited by Simon W. Moon; 04-11-11 at 11:52 AM.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: White House denies regime change is part of Libya mission [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Sadly you are correct here. I do however love watching them spin Libya though. Telling themselves that it is somehow noble and stuff because 'the One' is now doing it....hahaha. Hell, Obama is so damned weak that he has to rely on Bush's playbook to take his own actions....

    j-mac
    You might try listening to what is actually said. It's more hoenst that way.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: White House denies regime change is part of Libya mission [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Just war theory is a good bench mark for considering warfare, however today, the game is being changed by those looking to destroy an entire civilization, that changes the game.

    j-mac
    Do we have core values or don't we? If we're too selective with those values, they are not really values at all.

    But, to your comment. Things have not changed so much that we can't live to our values. It's really just a matter of actually having values and standards.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: White House denies regime change is part of Libya mission [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Mars View Post
    Like I've said many times. There are those who wish to stick their heads in the sand hoping it will all go away.

    I have no doubt lefties do not think, feel or believe Bush was right despite the overwhelming evidence that he was.

    I fully expect lefties to go to their graves still believing the "Bush Lied" hoax.

    Even 7 years after the guy who started the hoax admitted he made it all up they still refuse to admit what they know is true.
    I'm not sure if Bush lied but he certainly operated irresponsibly on poor intelligence. Also, "overwhelming evidence" is a ridiculous thing to say. If there was overwhelming evidence, then we would have found weapons. There was crappy evidence.

    It was a preventive war and in my mind preventive war is irresponsible.

    Illegal war?!? …….. Yet another hoax by those driven 100% by politics instead of facts.
    If by hoax, you mean that the use of force in Iraq was not supported under UN provisions for what constitutes a legal, acceptable war...Ask Kofi Annan. You can debate about the legality of the war, but to call it a "hoax" denies that international law exists and that its application to the Iraq War can be debated.

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    Re: White House denies regime change is part of Libya mission [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Non Sequitur, the US had, and has enormous interests in the region. The Saudis were putting heavy pressure to take out Saddam.
    And we take orders from Saudi Arabia? Good god man, have some pride. It doesn't matter what Saudi wants, our government does not serve them. It's us, our rights and sovereignty that our government is to protect. Neither of those were served in Iraq. There was no good reason to get bogged down in this quagmire that's killed more Americans than 9/11, and put us in debt to the Chinese up to our ears. It's a BS war waged on BS reasons and Iraq never had the capability to ever threaten our sovereignty. That's plan fact. Defense should be use for defense, in defense of our own rights and our own sovereignty. Our government was not given the power to the be World's Police, it was never authorized to behave in this manner. Our military should be for our direct needs only, not others.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    False premise, however I'd say the third one. The US is a sovereign nation, and has the ability to act unilaterally in protecting its interests.

    j-mac
    If we are going to war against another sovereign nation, I believe it is important to have an official declaration of war issued by Congress. Seeing how at first we didn't have a standing army and it took an act of Congress to allow the President to raise one; now that we have a standing army it seems reasonable that we put more restrictions on how it can be used and under what conditions. We aren't the empire here and I don't want my military scattered across the globe doing odd jobs for various countries. Let them deal with their own problems, we have problems of our own that need to be addressed. Like a ballooning debt in part caused by these wars.

    Of course, that's if we're sovereign and not just Saudi's attack dog taking out whomever they put pressure on us to take out, right? I mean, if Saudi wants it, we must do it.
    Last edited by Ikari; 04-11-11 at 12:36 PM.
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    Re: White House denies regime change is part of Libya mission [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    I'm not sure if Bush lied but he certainly operated irresponsibly on poor intelligence. Also, "overwhelming evidence" is a ridiculous thing to say. If there was overwhelming evidence, then we would have found weapons. There was crappy evidence.

    It was a preventive war and in my mind preventive war is irresponsible.
    I have posted the irrefutable evidence to you and others on several occasions.

    Some of the intelligence was crappy and wrong. It’s the stuff they got right and the WMD programs missed by UN inspectors that’s a bit more difficult to explain away.

    UNSCOM, UNMOVIC and the ISG reports are irrefutable and provide overwhelming evidence.

    So far not a single one of you hoaxers have even tried to explain what was found in Iraq. You just ignore it.

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    If by hoax, you mean that the use of force in Iraq was not supported under UN provisions for what constitutes a legal, acceptable war...Ask Kofi Annan. You can debate about the legality of the war, but to call it a "hoax" denies that international law exists and that its application to the Iraq War can be debated.
    Kofi was not the President of the US. It doesn't matter what his opinion is.

    His weapons inspectors proved Saddam was in violation of numerous resolutions.

    The "illegal war" nonsense was a hoax. We don't need UN approval to do anything. Get over it.
    The national security of the United States can never be left in the hands of liberals.

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    Re: White House denies regime change is part of Libya mission [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Mars View Post
    I have posted the irrefutable evidence to you and others on several occasions.
    As point of fact. No, you have not.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: White House denies regime change is part of Libya mission [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    "Imminent threat" only comes into play if a President wants to start a war on an adversary and he has 60 days thereafter to take it to Congress with another possible 30 day extension.
    And, just to be clear, you're talking about the War Powers Acts, correct?

    United States Code: Title 50,CHAPTER 33—WAR POWERS RESOLUTION
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: White House denies regime change is part of Libya mission [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    I'm not sure if Bush lied but he certainly operated irresponsibly on poor intelligence. Also, "overwhelming evidence" is a ridiculous thing to say. If there was overwhelming evidence, then we would have found weapons. There was crappy evidence.

    It was a preventive war and in my mind preventive war is irresponsible.
    The only thing these dictators, terrorist scumbags, etc, etc respect is strength. If America is strong, they have do deal with us from a position of disadvantage. If America hobbles itself into a position of weakness through *nuanced diplomacy*, or whatever verbal diarrhea you want to dress up words like *lack of resolve* or “cowardice” in, ...than so much the better for those countries who are attempting to compete with us on any level.

    President Bush with all his faults is a man of character who did what he thought was right for America....

    He was the right man at the right time. Definitely miss him.

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