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Thread: White House denies regime change is part of Libya mission [edited]

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    Re: White House denies regime change is part of Libya mission [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    It's well established that if a country is going to attack you, it's just to attack them first. This has been the case for at least centuries. We don't have to wait until missiles are launched or shots fired or a navy arrives on our shores. We just have to have cause to believe that we will be attacked.
    That's why I said "or close to that mark at least".
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: White House denies regime change is part of Libya mission [edited]

    president obama, if mr khadafi is not removed from libya, how can the coalition's purported mission of protecting civilian lives succeed?

    president obama, if khadafi is ousted, what will replace him?

    president obama, are you sure you've thought these things thru?

    how, sir, could you commit our military to a mission of overseas VIOLENCE without first considering these inevitable eventualities?

    especially in times like these, mr president, when we as a nation are BROKE?

    president obama, are the answers or non-responses to any of these questions responsible for hillary clinton's being "pushed over the edge?"

    in other words, why have blair, jones, mcchrystal, crowley and now hillary all left or announced their departure from your administration?

    are you sure you know what you're doing, president obama?

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    Re: White House denies regime change is part of Libya mission [edited]

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    All the data at the time said that Saddam did not have the capabilities of hitting the United States proper. Nor did he have any indication of desire to actually do so.
    So the US should abandon its commitments to its Allies? That's a very big step, and one that should be debated publicly before it ever happens. But in any case we do know he tried to assassinate a US President.
    Who was he going to hit? Do you have actual proof that he was gearing up to actually launch military action? Or is this a "he kinda had something and was totally working on some other stuff over here that could maybe be a threat if you squint"?
    We do know that everyone believed he had WMD and although you appear to be willing to not believe every world leader and intelligence expert, others are not so willing to take the chance with the lives of innocent people. Particularly given Saddam's wars, bombings, as well as his genocides, etc. You feel he should have been left there doing his mad dictatorial thing, huh?


    Why should he have left? On what authority did we have to dispose of a sovereign leader? Saddam was in no way a threat to the United States and as such there is no need to involve ourselves militarily on the issue.
    How do you know he was not a threat?

    The US Government has the authority to do pretty much whatever it wants to do and Saddam Hussein had agreed to follow commitments he had made when the first Gulf War ended. He didn't honor those commitments despite given plenty of opportunity to do so. He also ignored the UN Resolutions. He deserved his fate.
    Last edited by Grant; 04-09-11 at 12:08 AM.

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    Re: White House denies regime change is part of Libya mission [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Sometimes the best defense is an excellent defense.
    That's quite profound. Send it on up to West Point and see what they have to say about your theory.

    You might want to read the IPP report before you do that however:

    From the beginning of his rise to power, one of Saddam's major
    objectives was to shift the regional balance of power favorably towards Iraq. After
    the 1991 Gulf War, pursuing this objective motivated Saddam and his regime to
    increase their cooperation with-and attempts to manipulate-Islamic fundamentalists
    and related terrorist organizations. Documents indicate that the regime's use
    of terrorism was standard practice, although not always successful. From 1991
    through 2003, the Saddam regime regarded inspiring, sponsoring, directing, and
    executing acts of terrorism as an element of state power.
    The national security of the United States can never be left in the hands of liberals.

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    Re: White House denies regime change is part of Libya mission [edited]

    More from the IPP report:

    Secret Islamic Palestinian Organization established after the war. It believes
    in armed jihad against the Americans and Western interests. They
    also believe our leader [Saddam Hussein], may God protect him, is the true
    leader in the war against the infidels. The organization's leaders live in
    Jordan... when they visited Iraq two months ago they demonstrated a willingness
    to carry out operations against American interests at any time.

    In the first, from January 1993, and coinciding with the start of the US
    humanitarian intervention in Somalia, the Presidential Secretary informed
    the council member of Saddam's decision to "form a group to
    start hunting Americans present on Arab soil; especially Somalia."

    When attacking Western interests, the competitive terror cartel
    came into play, particularly in the late 1990s. Captured documents reveal that the
    regime was willing to co-opt or support organizations it knew to be part of al
    Qaeda-as long as that organization's near-term goals supported Saddam's longterm
    vision. A directive (Extract 24) from the Director for International Intelligence
    in the IIS to an Iraqi operative in Bahrain orders him to investigate a particular
    terrorist group there, The Army of Muhammad.

    Extract 24.
    [July 2001]
    We have learned of a group calling themselves The Army ofMuhammad... has
    threatened Kuwaiti authorities and plans to attack American and Western interests
    ...We need detailed information about this group, their activities, their objectives,
    and their most distinguished leaders. We need to know [to] whom
    they belong to and with whom they are connected. Give this subject your utmost attention.

    The agent reports (Extract 25) that The Army of Muhammad is
    working with Osama bin Laden.

    Extract 25.
    [9 July 200 1]
    Information available to us is that the group is under the wings of bin
    Laden. They receive their directions from Yemen. Their objectives are the same as bin Laden...
    A later note84 lists the group's objectives, among them:
    • Jihad in the name of God.
    • Striking the embassies and other Jewish and American interests anywhere
    in the world.
    • Attacking the American and British military bases in the Arab land.
    • Striking American embassies and interests unless the Americans pull
    out their forces from the Arab lands and discontinue their support for
    Israel.
    • Disrupting oil exports [to] the Americans from Arab countries and
    threatening tankers carrying oil to them.

    A later memorandum from the same collection to the Director
    of the IIS reports that the Army of Muhammad is endeavoring to receive assistance
    [from Iraq] to implement its objectives, and that the local IIS station has
    been told to deal with them in accordance with priorities previously established.
    The IIS agent goes on to inform the Director that "this organization is an offshoot
    of bin Laden, but that their objectives are similar but with different names that can
    be a way of camouflaging the organization."

    Captured Iraqi documents have uncovered evidence that links the regime of Saddam Hussein to regional and global terrorism, including a variety of revolutionary, liberation, nationalist, and Islamic terrorist organizations. While these documents do not reveal direct coordination and assistance between the Saddam regime and the al Qaeda network, they do indicate that Saddam was willing to use, albeit cautiously,
    operatives affiliated with al Qaeda as long as Saddam could have these terrorist–operatives monitored closely.
    Because Saddam’s security organizations and Osama bin Laden’s terrorist network operated with similar aims (at least in the short term), considerable overlap was inevitable when monitoring, contacting, financing, and training the same outside groups. This created both the appearance of and, in some
    ways, a “de facto” link between the organizations. At times, these organizations would work together in pursuit of shared goals but still maintain their autonomy and independence because of innate caution and mutual distrust. Though the execution of Iraqi terror plots was not always successful, evidence shows that Saddam’s use of terrorist tactics and his support for terrorist groups remained strong up until the collapse of the regime.
    Last edited by Ron Mars; 04-09-11 at 07:48 AM.
    The national security of the United States can never be left in the hands of liberals.

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    Re: White House denies regime change is part of Libya mission [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Mars View Post
    That's quite profound. Send it on up to West Point and see what they have to say about your theory.

    You might want to read the IPP report before you do that however:

    From the beginning of his rise to power, one of Saddam's major
    objectives was to shift the regional balance of power favorably towards Iraq. After
    the 1991 Gulf War, pursuing this objective motivated Saddam and his regime to
    increase their cooperation with-and attempts to manipulate-Islamic fundamentalists
    and related terrorist organizations. Documents indicate that the regime's use
    of terrorism was standard practice, although not always successful. From 1991
    through 2003, the Saddam regime regarded inspiring, sponsoring, directing, and
    executing acts of terrorism as an element of state power.
    I didn't see anything there that said that Saddam had not only the ability to strike the 50 States proper but also the intent to do so. You got maybe that? Or is this just more deflection?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: White House denies regime change is part of Libya mission [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Mars View Post
    More from the IPP report:

    Secret Islamic Palestinian Organization established after the war. It believes
    in armed jihad against the Americans and Western interests. They
    also believe our leader [Saddam Hussein], may God protect him, is the true
    leader in the war against the infidels. The organization's leaders live in
    Jordan... when they visited Iraq two months ago they demonstrated a willingness
    to carry out operations against American interests at any time.

    In the first, from January 1993, and coinciding with the start of the US
    humanitarian intervention in Somalia, the Presidential Secretary informed
    the council member of Saddam's decision to "form a group to
    start hunting Americans present on Arab soil; especially Somalia."

    When attacking Western interests, the competitive terror cartel
    came into play, particularly in the late 1990s. Captured documents reveal that the
    regime was willing to co-opt or support organizations it knew to be part of al
    Qaeda-as long as that organization's near-term goals supported Saddam's longterm
    vision. A directive (Extract 24) from the Director for International Intelligence
    in the IIS to an Iraqi operative in Bahrain orders him to investigate a particular
    terrorist group there, The Army of Muhammad.

    Extract 24.
    [July 2001]
    We have learned of a group calling themselves The Army ofMuhammad... has
    threatened Kuwaiti authorities and plans to attack American and Western interests
    ...We need detailed information about this group, their activities, their objectives,
    and their most distinguished leaders. We need to know [to] whom
    they belong to and with whom they are connected. Give this subject your utmost attention.

    The agent reports (Extract 25) that The Army of Muhammad is
    working with Osama bin Laden.

    Extract 25.
    [9 July 200 1]
    Information available to us is that the group is under the wings of bin
    Laden. They receive their directions from Yemen. Their objectives are the same as bin Laden...
    A later note84 lists the group's objectives, among them:
    • Jihad in the name of God.
    • Striking the embassies and other Jewish and American interests anywhere
    in the world.
    • Attacking the American and British military bases in the Arab land.
    • Striking American embassies and interests unless the Americans pull
    out their forces from the Arab lands and discontinue their support for
    Israel.
    • Disrupting oil exports [to] the Americans from Arab countries and
    threatening tankers carrying oil to them.

    A later memorandum from the same collection to the Director
    of the IIS reports that the Army of Muhammad is endeavoring to receive assistance
    [from Iraq] to implement its objectives, and that the local IIS station has
    been told to deal with them in accordance with priorities previously established.
    The IIS agent goes on to inform the Director that "this organization is an offshoot
    of bin Laden, but that their objectives are similar but with different names that can
    be a way of camouflaging the organization."

    Captured Iraqi documents have uncovered evidence that links the regime of Saddam Hussein to regional and global terrorism, including a variety of revolutionary, liberation, nationalist, and Islamic terrorist organizations. While these documents do not reveal direct coordination and assistance between the Saddam regime and the al Qaeda network, they do indicate that Saddam was willing to use, albeit cautiously,
    operatives affiliated with al Qaeda as long as Saddam could have these terrorist–operatives monitored closely.
    Because Saddam’s security organizations and Osama bin Laden’s terrorist network operated with similar aims (at least in the short term), considerable overlap was inevitable when monitoring, contacting, financing, and training the same outside groups. This created both the appearance of and, in some
    ways, a “de facto” link between the organizations. At times, these organizations would work together in pursuit of shared goals but still maintain their autonomy and independence because of innate caution and mutual distrust. Though the execution of Iraqi terror plots was not always successful, evidence shows that Saddam’s use of terrorist tactics and his support for terrorist groups remained strong up until the collapse of the regime.
    Mmmmhmmmm, And all that said that Saddam could hit the US and intended to do so? Or did it say he'd maybe work sometimes with terrorist organizations to achieve his goals so long as he remained in charge? I think maybe something of that nature. Saddam didn't allow large scale operation of terrorist organizations in Iraq (it's not Saudi Arabia), he had some and he tried to irk people by offering money to families of suicide bombers; but he was absolute rule in Iraq, not Al-Queda.

    Again, nothing you have presented has deminstrated any amount of immediate threat to America itself. In the end, we probably shouldn't have worked for regeim change in Iraq in the first place which helped promote the Ba'athist party to power from which Saddam rose up. Again, our interventionist policies (like those being championed by some for Libya) ultimately started the problem. We need to stop. It's not our job, our government is not empowered with this ability, it's a waste of our money, and more importantly it isn't worth the cost of American blood. Other people must fight for their governments and choose which types of governments they want to create.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  8. #388
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    Re: White House denies regime change is part of Libya mission [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I didn't see anything there that said that Saddam had not only the ability to strike the 50 States proper but also the intent to do so. You got maybe that? Or is this just more deflection?
    Cut him some slack. I don't think it's intentional deflection.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: White House denies regime change is part of Libya mission [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Mars View Post
    Yes, of course. All about oil.

    When do we start getting that free Iraqi oil?
    tell me what else they have worth risking our young men and women's lives over?

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    Re: White House denies regime change is part of Libya mission [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    You'll have to explain to me how it is we went into Iraq for their oil and now we're profiting from it.

    Where are, we getting the cheap gas made from looted Iraqi oil?
    it's not just oil it's the military machine. i still hold our young men and women should be brought home (saving a lot of $) and do what they pleged to do which is defend THIS country.

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