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Thread: SD governor signs 3-day wait for abortion into law

  1. #131
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    Re: SD governor signs 3-day wait for abortion into law

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Sorry... who the **** are you to tell anybody whether they're informed or not? More of that 'small government' conservatism.
    It's just common sense that if you're gonig to provide a medical procedure that you make an effort to actually inform your patient of the issues and possible effects at hand. You'r overlooking the fact that many aren't informed and some women are taken in by their boyfriend/partner/even rapist or abuser for the procedure.

    An abortion is a serious medical procedure - it is a surgery and can have disasterous effects mentally, emotionally - and so forth . . . it is really the provider's responsibility to ensure that they have communicated the facts. All other reproductive-related procedures have a serious-approach and response such as when I got my tubes tied. Since it was a surgery in a hospital I had to wait - had to be prepped - my doctor frequently cautioned me about the 'permanency' of it, the side effects, and so on.

    Demanding it on a walk-in or quick-appointment basis is undercutting the importance of it. You wouldn't have any other medical procedure done in the same manor - why is an abortion different than any other medical procedure? Even getting certain emergency procedures done at a hospital require informed consent.
    Last edited by Aunt Spiker; 03-23-11 at 05:11 PM.
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  2. #132
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    Re: SD governor signs 3-day wait for abortion into law

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    It's just common sense that if you're gonig to provide a medical procedure that you make an effort to actually inform your patient of the issues and possible effects at hand.

    An abortion is a serious medical procedure - it is a surgery and can have disasterous effects mentally, emotionally - and so forth . . . it is realy the provider's responsibility to ensure that they have communicated the facts.

    Demanding it on a walk-in or quick-appointment basis is undercutting the importance of it. You wouldn't have any other medical procedure done in the same manor - why is an abortion different?
    If this is what this law was doing I would agree but it's not:

    Women who want an abortion in South Dakota will face the longest waiting period in the nation—three days—and have to undergo counseling at pregnancy help centers that discourage abortions under a measure signed into law Tuesday by Gov. Dennis Daugaard.

    ...

    The law will certainly make it harder for some women to get abortions, said Kathi Di Nicola, a spokeswoman for Planned Parenthood Minnesota, North Dakota and South Dakota, which runs the clinic in Sioux Falls. Women could have to drive there several times to schedule an abortion, visit a crisis pregnancy center and then get an abortion, she said.

    .....

    Before getting an abortion, a woman also will have to consult with a pregnancy help center to get information about services available to help her give birth and keep a child. The state will publish a list of pregnancy help centers, all of which seek to persuade women to give birth
    The law is specifically designed to discourage people from actually making an informed choice on abortion. It's simply the same 'pro-life' bull**** that only gives a damn about the fetus until it's born. Then when it's born and the parent (I say parent considering how single women outnumber married women when it comes to abortion) gets on welfare they complain about these kids and their parent depending on the system. My doctors don't discourage me from getting a heart surgery. They don't actively work to discourage me from getting a new pancreas. They don't actively discourage me from getting rid of my tonsils. They don't make it harder for me to get an operation of any kind. Your comparison is invalid.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 03-23-11 at 05:17 PM.
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  3. #133
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    Re: SD governor signs 3-day wait for abortion into law

    And since I only mentioned my stance in the middle of my arguments as to why its ridiculous to suggest absolutely that its impossible to come to this position from a conservative view point.

    I'm not really a huge supporter of waiting periods, and don't really like the counciling. Unlike many of my fellow conservatives, while I personally believe a fetus to be a child at conception I also recognize two things. One, its an incredibly unique situation where upon both individuals are connected and can not be viewed as an absolute analog in my mind to a situation where they're not connected. Two, whether or not the fetus/baby is a child or not is a completely opinion based subjective choice that can be justified either direction through a plethora of means and I recognize that my personal view of it is my personal view.

    As such, I accept at this moment that it is constitutionally allowable based on SCOTUS rulings to have abortions be legal. I'd prefer this to be a state issue, and would likely support a limited measure of criminalizing it if it came up in my state. However, since that's not the case and due to my views stated above I personally feel the best option is to work at getting Roe v. Wade overturned but to treat it in many of the same ways I might view other rights. That includes my view of not funding them, just as I would not support funding people who are attempting to purchase a gun, or funding a means for individuals to speak to large groups however they wish.

    That said, much as I am with reasonably small waiting periods on guns or other types of restrictions that I believe will have little to no impact on people purchasing them, I'm not overly concerned with this. Do I like it? Not really. And like I said, I'm more bothered by the counciling the nteh wait time. But in general its one of those things where in principle I'm not really a fan but to me its such a small and negligible thing that I don't get my feathers ruffled over it. Now if this was say a 1 month or 2 month waiting period, essentially significantly shortening the time period a woman would be able to get the abortion (because the waiting period would push it into the 3rd trimester) then I'd have an issue with it, much like I had issue with attempts to severly limit the ability to purchase ammo since it was an end around to make gun ownership siginificantly more difficult.

  4. #134
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    Re: SD governor signs 3-day wait for abortion into law

    One of the consequences of this law may be to make abortions more expensive. If you have to go to see a doctor to begin a 3 day period, and then go back, that's 2 appointments you have to pay for. I don't see how this will remove any of the reasons why a person would feel they need an abortion, but it may put it outside the reach of poorer women.
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    Re: SD governor signs 3-day wait for abortion into law

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Conservatism isn't about no government, its not anarchism. Certain government functions are legitimate. Protection of life from physical harm done by another entity is a legitimate government function under consevative ideology. Again, simply because you disagree with the method doesn't counter my point.
    I guess if you're just a social Conservative, then having a lot of government wouldn't bother you. If you're a small government Conservative and a social Conservative, then it would make sense to me that you would try to find a way that would limit abortion in a way that wouldn't conflict with your small government views.

    I'll make it simple.

    Yes or no...it is within conservative ideology to have the government act in some fashion to attempt to protect children from being physically harmed or killed?

    Yes or no...Pro-lifers in general view a fetus as a child with equal rights to any other child?

    If you answer yes to both of those, then explain to me exactly how this is not a conclussion that could be reached through conservative ideology. Telling me there are BETTER ways to do it, telling me that there are ways you PREFER that they do it, is not telling me why its not conservative...its telling me why you don't like it.
    Yes, there are ways I'd prefer limiting abortion that don't grow government, but I consistently prefer small government. If those are the only two questions that are important to you on this issue, then you're only thinking like a social conservative.

    Except buying a gun doesn't equal killing someone to the majority of pro-gun control advocates that I know.
    Most abortion activists don't consider abortion murder either.... See, I can dismiss your argument just as easily..

    So its not exactly equivilent. Aborting the Fetus/Child in the Pro-Lifers mind is directly infringing upon someone elses rights, the child. I've never heard a large amount of gun-control people suggesting that simply owning a gun somehow violates another persons right.
    Likewise people argue that abortion can be legal but unnecessary.... Keep abortion legal, just work to eliminate it from society by addressing other needs.

    You see, you're just dancing around actually addressing the point I am trying to make. SD wants to eliminate access to abortion... They want to make receiving an abortion very inconvenient, to the point that it will be too much of a hassle. These people want abortion illegal.

    An extreme anti gun activist is the same way... they view access to guns as a threat and adverse to society. Guns are bad things. They kill people. You don't want them around. They want to eliminate access to guns completely, much like these anti abortion activists hate anybody getting an abortion. It doesn't matter a lot of times.... rape, incest, health.

    The same goes for hunting, though in that case at least you could argue its infringing upon the rights of the animal. Something I have seen argued. And in those cases, I disagree with them but I try to understand that from their perspective an animal life is no less meaningful then a human life and attempting to argue agianst them without being mindful of that is ridiculous.

    At the same time, NONE of what you just said is a counter for what I'm arguing...that you can't suggest you cannot come to this law from a conservative view point...but instead attempting to argue why this law is bad or poor, which is not what I'm arguing but yet what you keep falling back to.


    Wait, you mean like a wait time to buy a gun that you need to go through a costly and time intensive class that teaches you about the dangers of the gun and facts about it before you're able to carry it however you want?



    Are you stating your belief is that Owning a Gun hurts another person?

    I can tell you that from their perspective getting an abortion infringings on someone elses rights 100% of the time. Are you telling me owning a gun infringes upon someone elses rights 100% of the time?
    I am not against guns... You're entitled to your opinion on abortion. I understand that side of the debate.... However, I don't think this law represents small government Conservatives. It does please the social Conservatives though.

  6. #136
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    Re: SD governor signs 3-day wait for abortion into law

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    More of that ignorant talk about what is or isn't conservative.
    Tell us then... what is a conservative?

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    Re: SD governor signs 3-day wait for abortion into law

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    And since I only mentioned my stance in the middle of my arguments as to why its ridiculous to suggest absolutely that its impossible to come to this position from a conservative view point.
    It's possible, but it certainly isn't how most of those in this thread who support this kind of law reach their views. Most of them come to these views because they are more socially conservative than politically conservative. You can see this by the way that their arguments mimic the ones that they would demonize if it was proposed by a "liberal" about a position they disagreed with. This, for me, is the main problem within the modern conservative movement.

    So, while I agree with you that it is entirely possible to support this law based on conservative principles (my own argument in favor of allowing such a law is an example of this), I also believe that this is not what is occuring with the majority of those who have spoken out in support of this law in this thread.

  8. #138
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    Re: SD governor signs 3-day wait for abortion into law

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBook View Post
    Wait, why is "die" in quotation marks?

    I'm confused as to what point you are trying to make. That Planned Parenthood lies to patients in an attempt to influence them to have abortions? Give examples.

    Nothing confusing about it. I did give examples, go back to the beginning of this thread and view the youtube of the PP intake, and doctor lying to this patient.


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    Re: SD governor signs 3-day wait for abortion into law

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    One of the consequences of this law may be to make abortions more expensive. If you have to go to see a doctor to begin a 3 day period, and then go back, that's 2 appointments you have to pay for. I don't see how this will remove any of the reasons why a person would feel they need an abortion, but it may put it outside the reach of poorer women.

    Is abortion the only path these women have with an unwanted pregnancy?

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    Re: SD governor signs 3-day wait for abortion into law

    Quote Originally Posted by roughdraft274 View Post
    Of course, conservatives hate the idea of government getting in the middle of people's affairs...

    Conservatives hates the idea of the government forcing a middle man between patients and their doctors... etc.

    Unless of course they don't like what completely legal decisions people are making.

    Any "conservative" that supports this crap should switch their lean to "somewhat conservative".
    Most conservatives believe in the right to life. That includes the life of an unborn baby.

    I will not change my lean to "somewhat" conservative. I think that makes me "more" conservative.
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