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Re: The 'Kill Team' Images--US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians
and is the experience that myself and others with multiple years in the region have seen born out.
hate crimses in America = mosque vandalization. everybody hand-wrings, tears our hair and wails in public about insensitivity.
hate crimes in Egypt = a church full of innocent people getting blown up and children were torn into shreds. police shrug, move on, then turn on the copts when they protest.
you'd have to have the reasoning capacity of ghaddafi to make that into an equivalency.
there were blacks in the post-Reconstruction South and Jews in Germany circa 1944; that doesn't make either of those regimes 'tolerant'
if you would like to cite for me the tolerant sharia-goverened society; i would be fascinated to learn about it.
if it's a stereotype then it's a stereotype with a strong basis in reality.
in Pakistan, you can kill your daughter or wife, and no one really gives a rats' a--. It's like you killed your donkey. I have traveled over a large portion of the Mediteranean, and - again isn't it odd - in non muslim countries i saw women allowed to wander around without male chaperones, and some of them (but then, this was uber liberal europe where they just let women do anything) were allowed to drive! without a hair covering or anything - whores that they were. hopefully their male relatives beat them to death with chains for their evil, slut ways. :roll:
yeah, and i know that that statistic defines "domestic violence" to include any number of non-physical activities so as to produce a more shocking statistic. sort of like when they start screaming about how 2/3rds of college women at X School are raped, beaten, molested, sexually harrassed, whistled at, checked out, asked to go on a date...
but since we're passing along statistic, here's a fun one: UNICEF figures that two-thirds of all killings in the Palestinian territories are honor killings. and palestine is one of the governments that actually claims to punish it! In Saudi Arabia a man killed his daughter for talking to a boy on facebook... and the judge blamed facebook.
you dispute that there are honor killings in the West? really?
then sadly you are very wrong. for a quick point of reference, let's turn to ole wiki to see how that pashtunwali i referenced earlier is working out in Pakistan:
Statistically, honor killings have a high level of support in Pakistan's rural society, despite widespread condemnation from human rights groups. In 2002 alone over 382 people, about 245 women and 137 men, became victims of honor killings in the Sindh province of Pakistan. Over the course of six years, more than 4,000 women have died as victims of honour killings in Pakistan from 1999 to 2004. In 2005 the average annual number of honor killings for the whole nation was stated to be more than 10,000 per year. According to women's rights advocates, the concepts of women as property, and of honor, are so deeply entrenched in the social, political and economic fabric of Pakistan that the government mostly ignores the regular occurrences of women being killed and maimed by their families." Frequently, women killed in "honour" killings are recorded as having committed suicide or died in accidents...
when honor killing happens in the west it hits the headlines hard because here in the west we consider it horrific. because we think stuff like this is a special level of human rights abuse:
as opposed to general muslim society in the Middle East, and often in the West, where domestic violence to include murder is encouraged. encouraged? what hyperbole! what? huddud law? never heard of it - why do you ask?
and SEA? heavy muslim community. Indonesia, for example, is the largest muslim nation in existance.
in Bangladesh recently, for example:
being the well-traveled individual you are, you know as well as I do that the Indians are the Middle Easts' Mexicans; they mass-immigrate in, and perform much of the labor. I got to spend about a month in Bahrain, and got to see first hand the sharp differences in the relationships between the genders of these two cultures; and the parallels that you are drawing are ridiculous. one quick personal example: i walked into a shop in the UAE to purchase a blouse for my wife, and the woman at the counter (the store was owned by an Indian couple) quickly came over to my side to help me pick out a size, a color, design, and upsell me on some jewelry. at the time i was pretty sure i was getting taken on the jewelry, but i've seen the wife wear the shirt once and the bangle all the time; which i suppose tells you everything you need to know about my grasp of fashion. but the point is that the woman felt no fear or compunction whatsoever about walking straight up to a strange western male and engaging him. probably because she knew that her husband wouldn't break her jaw for doing so. i've spent probably a little over 2 years in the mediterranean/ME and i can't offhand think of a single time that a muslim woman has ever approached me or, and, frankly, that i have ever spoken with one. why? because they know that their husbands will.
That is the stereotype...which doesn't bear out among the people I met.
and is the experience that myself and others with multiple years in the region have seen born out.
I have also read about Americans' hate crimes against Muslims.
hate crimses in America = mosque vandalization. everybody hand-wrings, tears our hair and wails in public about insensitivity.
hate crimes in Egypt = a church full of innocent people getting blown up and children were torn into shreds. police shrug, move on, then turn on the copts when they protest.
you'd have to have the reasoning capacity of ghaddafi to make that into an equivalency.
How does this dispute the fact that there are Jews in Iran?
there were blacks in the post-Reconstruction South and Jews in Germany circa 1944; that doesn't make either of those regimes 'tolerant'
Does it "always" happen?
if you would like to cite for me the tolerant sharia-goverened society; i would be fascinated to learn about it.
I don't doubt that abuse of women is high. But it's a stereotype that says the ME is a worse culprit than other regions.
if it's a stereotype then it's a stereotype with a strong basis in reality.
I have traveled to many parts of the world and I don't see them as that much worse with regards to treatment of women.
in Pakistan, you can kill your daughter or wife, and no one really gives a rats' a--. It's like you killed your donkey. I have traveled over a large portion of the Mediteranean, and - again isn't it odd - in non muslim countries i saw women allowed to wander around without male chaperones, and some of them (but then, this was uber liberal europe where they just let women do anything) were allowed to drive! without a hair covering or anything - whores that they were. hopefully their male relatives beat them to death with chains for their evil, slut ways. :roll:
Do you know that every year, nearly 5 million women experience abuse at their partner's hand in America? That 1 in 4 American women will experience domestic violence?
yeah, and i know that that statistic defines "domestic violence" to include any number of non-physical activities so as to produce a more shocking statistic. sort of like when they start screaming about how 2/3rds of college women at X School are raped, beaten, molested, sexually harrassed, whistled at, checked out, asked to go on a date...
but since we're passing along statistic, here's a fun one: UNICEF figures that two-thirds of all killings in the Palestinian territories are honor killings. and palestine is one of the governments that actually claims to punish it! In Saudi Arabia a man killed his daughter for talking to a boy on facebook... and the judge blamed facebook.
Yes, I dispute that.
you dispute that there are honor killings in the West? really?
Statistically, I don't think that Muslim women are killed at a higher rate than other races in Western countries
then sadly you are very wrong. for a quick point of reference, let's turn to ole wiki to see how that pashtunwali i referenced earlier is working out in Pakistan:
Statistically, honor killings have a high level of support in Pakistan's rural society, despite widespread condemnation from human rights groups. In 2002 alone over 382 people, about 245 women and 137 men, became victims of honor killings in the Sindh province of Pakistan. Over the course of six years, more than 4,000 women have died as victims of honour killings in Pakistan from 1999 to 2004. In 2005 the average annual number of honor killings for the whole nation was stated to be more than 10,000 per year. According to women's rights advocates, the concepts of women as property, and of honor, are so deeply entrenched in the social, political and economic fabric of Pakistan that the government mostly ignores the regular occurrences of women being killed and maimed by their families." Frequently, women killed in "honour" killings are recorded as having committed suicide or died in accidents...
In America, Black women are more likely to be hurt by their partners. When so-called "honour-killing" happens it hits the headline hard because of the anti-Muslim prejudice.
when honor killing happens in the west it hits the headlines hard because here in the west we consider it horrific. because we think stuff like this is a special level of human rights abuse:
...investigators were already handling honor killing incidents in 1989, and likely even before that. In all cases, the victims were daughters, wives or sisters, killed by fathers (sometimes mothers), husbands or brothers for "dishonoring" the family: by requesting a divorce, by dating before marriage, by refusing to accept an arranged spouse, by having non-Muslim friends.
What no one mentions, however, is the other dirty secret of Muslim families, even in the West: honor violence--the abuse that results not in death, but devastation. Tantamount, at times, to torture, honor violence occurs far more frequently than honor killings, with effects that in some ways could be described as worse.
How bad is it? In 2008 British studies counted nearly 17,000 incidents of honor violence annually, including kidnappings, sexual abuse and murder. Every week, according to an article in the Independent, British organizations rescued three girls from Islamabad--some of them as young as 11--sent there by their parents to be married. These girls often are raped by their much older husbands, who may also use the marriage to immigrate to Europe, continuing the abusive treatment of their brides there as well. Usually, too, the daughters of such couples are kept at home, forbidden to live the lives of Western women, and in turn, married off themselves, probably to a family cousin also in Islamabad--and so the chain continues...
It is a vague term, “honor violence.” But it is not, as some might argue, equivalent to domestic abuse; and it is crucial to stop equating the two, both for the sake of the victims and in order to better identify--and prosecute--the abusers.
Unlike domestic violence, honor violence revolves around a set of religious codes, aimed at depriving women (and sometimes men) of freedom and at subjugating free will. As one Dutch-Afghan woman put it when a neighbor was murdered by her husband: “She deserved it. She knew the rules.”
More importantly, honor violence--and honor killings--carry a seal of approval from the family and community at large: Indeed, often those who beat their daughters or lock them in their rooms, or burn their faces to disfigure them, do so reluctantly, under pressure from the family. And therefore it becomes perhaps the most underreported crime in the West--including the U.S...
New York’s Sakhi Center, which recently found that over 40% of the South Asian women living around Boston had suffered family violence... So why does the public at large know so little about it?
Enter the political correctness of the media, of editors who refuse to state the true religious motivations behind such despicable crimes, who treat them like “ordinary” domestic violence cases, or--worse--refuse to cover them at all.
But the truth is: Where there are honor killings, there is violence--and more of it than we know...
Wrong. In some part of rural SEA with Buddhism as the dominant religion domestic violence is still not socially ostracized.
as opposed to general muslim society in the Middle East, and often in the West, where domestic violence to include murder is encouraged. encouraged? what hyperbole! what? huddud law? never heard of it - why do you ask?
and SEA? heavy muslim community. Indonesia, for example, is the largest muslim nation in existance.
in Bangladesh recently, for example:
...A 14-year-old girl named Hena has been killed by fewer than 80 lashes of the 100-lash whipping local sharia authorities had ordered her to suffer. It’s difficult to contain one’s anger at the details. Hena had been raped by a 40-year-old Muslim man, described in news accounts as her “relative.” The allegation of rape got the authorities involved, but that turned out to be even worse than the sexual assault itself.
Under sharia, rape cannot be proved absent the testimony of four witnesses. Rapists tend not to bring witnesses along for their attacks. In any event, moreover, sharia values a woman’s testimony as only half that of a man, so the deck is stacked and rape cannot be proved in most cases. Yet that hardly means the report of rape is of no consequence. Unable to establish that she’d been forcibly violated, the teenager became in the eyes of the sharia court a woman who’d had sexual intercourse outside of marriage. Thus the draconian lashing sentence that became a death sentence....
Under sharia, rape cannot be proved absent the testimony of four witnesses. Rapists tend not to bring witnesses along for their attacks. In any event, moreover, sharia values a woman’s testimony as only half that of a man, so the deck is stacked and rape cannot be proved in most cases. Yet that hardly means the report of rape is of no consequence. Unable to establish that she’d been forcibly violated, the teenager became in the eyes of the sharia court a woman who’d had sexual intercourse outside of marriage. Thus the draconian lashing sentence that became a death sentence....
being the well-traveled individual you are, you know as well as I do that the Indians are the Middle Easts' Mexicans; they mass-immigrate in, and perform much of the labor. I got to spend about a month in Bahrain, and got to see first hand the sharp differences in the relationships between the genders of these two cultures; and the parallels that you are drawing are ridiculous. one quick personal example: i walked into a shop in the UAE to purchase a blouse for my wife, and the woman at the counter (the store was owned by an Indian couple) quickly came over to my side to help me pick out a size, a color, design, and upsell me on some jewelry. at the time i was pretty sure i was getting taken on the jewelry, but i've seen the wife wear the shirt once and the bangle all the time; which i suppose tells you everything you need to know about my grasp of fashion. but the point is that the woman felt no fear or compunction whatsoever about walking straight up to a strange western male and engaging him. probably because she knew that her husband wouldn't break her jaw for doing so. i've spent probably a little over 2 years in the mediterranean/ME and i can't offhand think of a single time that a muslim woman has ever approached me or, and, frankly, that i have ever spoken with one. why? because they know that their husbands will.
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